Strength dominating stat value

[Tamior]

So what exactly will you be able to do with high (say, 14) perception you will not be able to do with normal (8) perception?

[Tamior]

If we really want to go ALL the way with intelligence, I’d say

• limit recipes level you can “auto-learn” (aka “think of by yourself”) to (intelligence - 3)
• limit recipes level you use (if you already know it or have reference) to (intelligence - 1)
• make if so you permanently learn any “auto learn” recipe if you ever attempted to craft it even once (to make sure you don’t suddenly forget how to make arrows because you have a flu).

So now with int 4 you are stuck with just basic stuff (level 0-1 auto-learn), with average you can get most things, but you need above average (or drugs) to invent functional survivor gear or to understand complex chemistry (cooking in game terms).

[darktoes]

You’d have a higher chance of headshots, higher general accuracy, higher overmap sight range, be able to see things from a greater distance, and be harder to detect while sneaking/hiding. That’s a pretty good array of decent bonuses, even if a lack of any of them doesn’t actually cripple the player. Which is about how it should go.

It’s the same for strength, really. The only real “threshold” bonuses for strength is being able to smash certain things with slightly weaker weapons and access to stronger bows, though that’s effectively just bow damage scaling, not an actual can or cannot do.

While I do think limiting SOME recipes on intelligence is a good idea, looking at it again there may have to be some caveats. For example, a nodachi is difficulty 10 for fabrication, and that doesn’t require any particular intelligence beyond knowing where and how to hit a piece of metal (oversimplified, but the point stands) while something truly difficult knowledge-wise, like complex chemicals or an advanced piece of electronics would definitely require a high level of intelligence.
To that end, I suspect the way to handle it would be to limit certain technical skills (electronics, computers, cooking, and first aid off the top of my head) to the height of your intelligence stat. That not only limits a number of high-end recipes, but also limits the actual effects of those skills, hacking with computers and healing with first aid.

That said, you may also be able to limit certain other skills to other stats, bashing weapons to strength, marksmanship to perception, dodging to dexterity. That might be more trouble than it’s worth and I can’t say I honestly like the idea, just would like to put it out there.

[Tamior]

Yea, well, the reason I want an “umbrella” rule for crafting vs intelligence is that it would be easy (easier, anyway) to code and easy to communicate to player base.
A few cases like nodachi needing 11 int to craft does not seem THAT off the mark and may have more to do with the fact nodachi should not be lvl 10 recipe in the first place (seems more like lvl 8, that’s what you need to read the recipe from the book).

[darktoes]

Issue being an “umbrella” rule is a bit harsh, and makes it basically impossible to play without 10 or more intelligence if you want access to reasonably good gear. The issue is simply that some skills are not as technical as others, and don’t rely on intelligence so much as practice and/or knowledge. Fabrication, for example, does max out with high-end metalwork like swords and armor. Anything more complicated tends to be pushed into mechanics.

[Tamior]

Issue being an “umbrella” rule is a bit harsh, and makes it basically impossible to play without 10 or more intelligence if you want access to reasonably good gear.

Not really?
I mean, with int 8 you will be able to craft anything up to lvl 7 by default and that’s where most of the “reasonably good gear” is. And the few things that are beyond lvl 7 you will STILL be able to craft if you boost your int with some drugs.

But I’m ok with having more lax restriction for high-end fabrication and tailoring as far as actual crafting goes, as long as you still need high int to “invent” all that stuff without a reference.

[darktoes]

Pneumatic bolt driver, ANBC suit, and mutagen are all level 8. A substantial portion of the good lategame gear is level 8 or higher and craftable only, so there are some fairly serious limits to what you can actually reach, and being able to drink some coffee just so you can be smart enough to cook mutagen is awfully weird.

One way or the other, I really think that would be enough to make intelligence 11 a must-have for most people simply because it blocks off some content, and I’d like to avoid that sort of thing.

I can agree with the autolearn recipes, but for the most part if you have a circuit diagram and a set of blueprints in front of you you’re going to be able to manage it. Maybe something like with reading, where having less than the required intelligence substantially slows you down so it takes it twice as long to make, but blocking it off entirely wouldn’t sit well I think.

[Tamior]

Well, I think it might be wise to just try and roll the “auto-learn recipes now require (intelligence-3) to invent” PR alone and see how it fairs.
Maybe that alone will be enough to get the job done.

[darktoes]

I’m content to see how that goes, but I’m not certain intelligence is the stat that needs the most help, considering it also affects book learning and a few other things.

[Tamior]

Well, that, I agree with.
Hence my initial problem with finding a role for perception.

[darktoes]

I think enemy identification and overmap sight range would be the two big ones to look at, and maybe increasing the ranged penalty at low levels. Maybe even a dodge bonus, based on being able to perceive when and how an enemy is making an attack.

[Tamior]

Enemy identification will be a nightmare to code…

Overmap sight range, now that I can see as a stand-alone PR.
What about scout trait and binoculars? Should they still double, or should they give flat bonus?
I’m leaning towards flat bonus.…

[darktoes]

Multiplier. Perception is about more than just eyesight, it’s awareness and your ability to perceive things. Binoculars and the scout trait basically hit sight and awareness individually, but actually multiply them rather than just flatly increasing them. I.E Vision magnification is multiplicative, scouting knowledge would benefit your awareness but be more about knowing how to make use of it.

[Krisu]

Create a Laser Eyes bionic that deals more damage with higher perception, and can shoot ANYWHERE that you can see. Just a little idea.

[Tamior]

Multiplier. Perception is about more than just eyesight, it’s awareness and your ability to perceive things. Binoculars and the scout trait basically hit sight and awareness individually, but actually multiply them rather than just flatly increasing them. I.E Vision magnification is multiplicative, scouting knowledge would benefit your awareness but be more about knowing how to make use of it.

This will quickly get pretty ridiculous with high perception. Like, “see the whole overmap” ridiculous. Just saying.

[darktoes]

Perception wouldn’t give a large bonus, probably just a tile each point or so, probably. Maybe they don’t have to be multiplicative, it’s a new mechanic so how to balance it will need some discussion.

[Tamior]

Create a Laser Eyes bionic that deals more damage with higher perception, and can shoot ANYWHERE that you can see. Just a little idea.

[pikolinian]

I hate to say that but: From realism point of view…
Extremalay Min/Max characters are pretty useless. what sport can human with 18/4/4/4 stats do IRL?
High strenght? weightlifting, nothing more without dexterity/speed.
Dexterity? Darts, i guess. Acrobatics need strenght, snooker need INT.
INT? chess or bridge. Sport poker needs PER.
PER? hmm, no idea, but it would be very valuable in hunter-gatherer community

Anyway, my point is that 18/4/4/4 should be always suboptimal choice, whatever it means. perhaps better than basic 8/8/8/8, but worse that some 14/10/4/4, or 12/12/4/4.

As for PER, Overmap range sounds nice. Maybe some more info about Blinking Z Hordes? size , strongest enemy, something like that. And large game visible from overmap (would be usefull for hunting). better PER = higher range of bonus information.

Better chance for Headshot - cool. Maybe also better chance for special attacks in melee, both from weapons and from fighting styles (you see more opportunities to attack).

Limited Item data is cool too - you can see exact item name from short distance, only category from medium (like “pistol”, “drug”, “plastic bottle”), and not visible from large distance. Visibility should be modified by volume of item (you’ll see fridge from kilometer, but not credit card…), perhaps total volume of all items in a field (…but stack of 1000 cards should be visible from afar), light conditions , terrain type…

In other words, PER is not a first choice, but add some twist (possibilities and/or bonuses) as second/third stat.

[Lerzan]

PER from how I see it is two main things, how well you can see/hear/sense something and how well deatails are noticed. If I remove my glasses I can no longer read well and only with great difficulty, any precise ranged attack has a significant luck factor (plus I cant zero in shots).

A eagle eyed person can notice, shot is high need to correct for that and when I fire the gun kicks the sight to the left so I need to correct for that. Instead of forcing the gun on target you know how to work with it to lower the effects of recoil and misaligned sights, possibly even allowing a longer maximum effective range.

Right now sensed in general seem to be a mixed bag, as sound keeps you awake and you can see fine until the edge of the map. Maybe have that shadow/fog of war around the edge of sight on a bright day be effected by PER?

I do think that penalties work just as well to curb stat dumping, because you can’t focus on one stat then.

What if it was split so
STR = damage
DEX = melee chance to hit
INT = chance to crit (melee and ranged)
PER = ranged chance to hit

INT being crit because you can identify what natural weak points are. Knowing they are there and applying that knowledge are different things though.

[AskaHope]

Perception is the problem.

Turn Perception into a hidden stats and add constituition. A constituition stat would be WAYS much more valuable than perception and it would at least help balancing strength