Strain - A New Resource to Manage

[Inadequate]

You have a point Inadequate but I don’t see how this mechanic can be trivialized/ignored by experienced players, unlike other problems like… finding clean water for example. Strain will be there even when the player has acquire superior melee weapon and CBMs and stuff; he may be able to endure it longer yes but eventually the fatigue will kick in and a retreat is needed. Unlike now which with sufficient skill, weapon and terrain even a zombie hulk can be trivial.

Once you have a better selection of weapons, then you can just choose to use the less strain inducing ones, which largely boils down to ranged weaponry. This causes people to sideline melee weaponry for ranged in order not to have to deal with this mechanic, which creates a vicious cycle where people complain about ranged weaponry being overpowered and nerfing it. From this thread and the myriad proposals to nerf ranged weaponry, we’re already in the middle of that cycle. Eventually the game will end up practically unplayable due to the myriad mechanics grafted willy-nilly onto basic combat.

If you think kiting and armor are overpowered, there’s been proposals to nerf them. If you think being surrounded should be more of an issue, there’s been proposals to have them impact player and weapon speed. Regardless of how I feel about those issues, at least they worked with the mechanics already present.

[infectedmochi]

Who say ranged weapon can’t be tiring?
-Melee: infinite ammo but tiring.
-Bow & xbow: ammo can be made in large quantities but require certain skill to be effective and moderate tiring.
-Gun: Powerful and does not tire the character but ammo are limited.
Ranged weapons have limitation in ammo, you can’t have infinite ammo. Both kind of attack are op at certain point in the game.

From this thread and the myriad proposals to nerf ranged weaponry, we’re already in the middle of that cycle. Eventually the game will end up practically unplayable due to the myriad mechanics grafted willy-nilly onto basic combat.

I’m honestly think you are just exaggerating things. I can’t see this trend you are talking about here. This game is still in a very active development so things tend to change very fast and broken mechanics most of the time are unavoidable. Right now both melee and ranged need to be rebalanced.

See below

It is true that ranged combat is even more overpowered then melee combat, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix one at least. For the ranged combat there are already separate threads out there (like http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5216.0).

[Inadequate]

I don’t really think they need any significant rebalancing mechanics-wise. The main issue on the ranged thread was the ease and variety of obtaining ranged weaponry, which was corrected without touching on the basic mechanics of ranged combat. If common enemies are weak at high levels, someone’s already at work on high level enemies. All of those methods of rebalancing work within the established mechanics and make the game more interesting. The only other roguelike with a system like this is Unreal World, and I’ve never felt that the stamina system there significantly added to the game either. All it does is slow you down and cause you to hit the ‘pass turn’ button every few actions you do. It would be another mechanic that hits the early game hardest, and serves mostly to bog down the gameplay pace at high levels.

[Uneron]

Done right fatigue or strain or whatever should only ever be an issue if you do very exhausting things, like trying to take out a whole town with nothing more then a baseball bat. Starting characters are generally not trying to do anything so recklessly suicidal, they are more likely to simply run away. Therefore Fatigue would only really affect mid-game to late-game characters as they set out to clear entire towns, take on a beehive with nothing more then a melee weapon and other crazy goals. But fulfilling those goals should really involve more then grabbing your melee weapon of choice and continue bashing until nothing moves.

[Inadequate]

So what does this mechanic add for mid game characters? Either you just use a ranged weapon and avoid all that hassle, or you hit a few bees, retreat back to a nearby vehicle, chill a bit, then continue hitting. The claim is that this mechanic will help prevent you from hitting zombies non-stop while kiting them, but if you can accomplish that then this mechanic doesn’t do anything besides add the intermediate step ‘and walk back a few steps, then press the ‘next turn’ button over and over’. It’s artificial difficulty that doesn’t make the game any more interesting.

[Uneron]

Actually I don’t think you should recover that quickly. It should take hours not a couple of turns, like you suggested. You could return after that, but by then the zombies you’ve killed might be walking again.

Like I said: Ranged combat is quite overpowered as well. You really have to see this suggestion in the context of balanced range combat. As infectedmochi pointed out: ranged ammunition is limited. There is also a PR on git to make ranged combat require ‘aim’, which means you cannot simply backtrack a few steps and start shooting again (well, at least not very well).

But that’s ranged combat and a bit off topic. I think you agree that melee combat needs balancing. We only argue about the implementation here.

[Inadequate]

Precisely my point. Ranged combat is currently being rebalanced with respect to the current games and current mechanics. No point adding another combat mechanic on top of the mix in such unsteady times. Give it time to play out and settle before rebalancing everything for the sake of your pet mechanic.

And if it takes hours, then you need a safe base to rest, like a nearby vehicle or house. So that’s another luxury that a mid-to-late game character can afford, but an early game one can’t. That’s another way it hurts the early game more than anything else.

[Uneron]

Well, I am not arguing that it should be implemented right away. My personal hope is that the release after the next will be 0.B standing for 'B’alance.

I agree that an early game character would be indeed at a disadvantage, but as I was arguing in my last post: He shouldn’t do that in the first place. If an early game character tries fighting a horde of monsters with a melee weapon instead of running away, then he gets what he had coming in the first place. Really, trying to clear a town with a melee weapon on your first day in game is a stupid idea and it is only fair that such a character would have a huge problem.

[Inadequate]

All your responses seem to be overly concerned with that particular scenario. It’s already a bad idea, and it’s become even more so with the recent zombie health buffs and kiting nerfs. If anyone can pull that off, it’s an established player who knows how to game the underlying systems already in place, in which case those systems should be looked at. Implementing such an ill-considered mechanic just to stop this one niche scenario seems somewhat narrow-minded, especially since you don’t seem to consider how it works in the larger context of the game outside melee combat.

And I don’t think it’s far-fetched to say it’s a vicious cycle. You have people in the ranged thread going ‘we should introduce a mechanic that makes it harder to use range and forces you to melee’ and then you have this thread where someone goes ‘we should introduce a mechanic that makes it harder to melee and forces you to use ranged’ and neither side appears to pay attention to each other. It’s not hard to see how the trend will continue.

[Sanarr]

I think that combat can rapidly drain fatigue from even experienced fighter (especially if multiple combatants is involved). Its only looks like "John hit Z – Z hit John " stuff on the screen, but I’ve always imagine Cata-fight as some Z fiercely grabbing char, char desperately avoiding plague dripping teeth while fighting for his/her life and so on. Not leisure walking among very-slow-and-stupid-punchbags or practicing your kata on dummies. Possibility to die from starvation while killing 1000 Zeds through window seems… not so realistic.

All opinions listed above are good in one way, or another. Its true that combat-nerfing thing should be considered with caution, but strain system, to my mind, is tactical addition, not nerf-the-melee stuff. Encounter with 10-20 Zs should be thing to consider rather than quick “where is my trusted zweihander?”. Reposition, hiding in houses to catch your breath, luring groups of zeds in trap fields rather than chopping them all in one row seems good challenge for me. I remember situation when I found a motorbike and tried to rush through town. I hit the wall, fell of, and became surrounded with 20 or 30 Z’s. I was really scared back then. But quick run to nearest thin passage between houses, broadsword and some slashing quickly changed deathtrap situation (and, possible YASD) to victorious one.

So… I vote for implementation of well thought and balanced strain system (or for increasing fatigue loss in fighting, especially with heavy weapons).

[infectedmochi]

All opinions listed above are good in one way, or another. Its true that combat-nerfing thing should be considered with caution, but strain system, to my mind, is tactical addition, not nerf-the-melee stuff.

This. If done right, I can see CDDA turn into a really tactical game: Lure zombies with sound, set up traps (the least used skill), divide a zombie horde into smaller packs and kill one by one, use terrain to their fullest advantages, consider what weapon to use (light vs heavy; melee with infinite ammo but tiring vs ranged with finite ammo) and so on…

[Inadequate]

For all the breathless excitement your narrative conjures, mechanically it boils down to ‘step back, mash the next turn button every once in a while’.

Also there’s no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system. Nobody here appears to consider the mechanic in the broader context of the game, especially considering the recent nerfs. This entire thread started because someone tried to graft this onto mutations, then when it didn’t work, clumsily tried to shoehorn it into an even larger context. Suggesting it was a bad idea and implementing it would be an even worse one.

And the enemy AI is several orders of magnitude below the level you’d need for the tactical game you dream of, no need to implement additional complexity in anticipation.

[infectedmochi]

Also there’s no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system. Nobody here appears to consider the mechanic in the broader context of the game, especially considering the recent nerfs. This entire thread started because someone tried to graft this onto mutations, then when it didn’t work, clumsily tried to shoehorn it into an even larger context. Suggesting it was a bad idea and implementing it would be an even worse one.

Your arguments seem to boil down it’s impossible to implement correctly, “no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system” or it’s a bad idea and there are no way around it; and I must say that I remain unconvinced, if you claim “no way” without at least telling people why do you think so, and actually discuss what others have said without simply dismissing their arguments (what Uneron and Sanarr said). You keep thinking that this strain system will be “hit 3 or 4 zombies and step back, hit wait and repeat” while people were actually discussing how to implement it without it being to tedious; for all we know the intention was “prevent player from plowing down a horde of 30 zombies at a broken window non-stop” not “let’s make the zombie fights longer”.

[Uneron]

For all the breathless excitement your narrative conjures, mechanically it boils down to ‘step back, mash the next turn button every once in a while’.

Also there’s no way we’ll get a well-balanced and well-thought out strain system.

Wow, you are really cynical when it comes to the development of this game. You really think not a single dev could come up with a good system? If you are that pessimistic about the future of the game why even post in the Drawing Board? Could save yourself a lot of frustration.

[Inadequate]

There really isn’t much of a middle ground between waiting a few turns and having to rest for an hour or more. The former would be tedious and not that much of an improvement from the current system, the latter would hurt early-game characters more than late-game ones. And I don’t see the deluge of proposals on how to actually make it work, much less how to make it less tedious. It’s a fundamentally ill-thought-out mechanic that won’t add anything to the game, and would actively worsen it. Under that circumstance, I feel obligated to cast doubt upon it.

Also when have I dismissed other arguments? Every post has been in direct response to points they’ve brought up. And the intention might not have been ‘let’s make zombie fights longer’, but I don’t exactly see it making zombie fights shorter, and if it makes zombie fights take exactly the same amount of time then it seems redundant to implement it.

[i2amroy]

Here’s my take on this.

Strain/exhaustionis a good thing, mainly because that’s the way it is in the real world, and will eventually go into the game in one form or another. That said a system such as that will require careful balancing and much examination before it’s ready to go in.

[EkarusRyndren]

I don’t see what’s wrong with this system, as best I can tell the “biggest problem” with this is it “breaks” a very easy, very over-powered mechanic. “It’ll just add a step of go back to your vehicle and wait”

EEEEeeeehhhhhhwat?

NEVER has “retreat to your vehicle” been a realistic option, even for me, using a spawned-in mil-plated, HD Frame, HD board monster. Because usually what ends up happening is I get to the door, open it, climb in, and then there’s a zombear in the way. I don’t see how slowing the player down is going to make that any easier.

[IcedPee]

I don’t know how I feel about this idea in general, but I do agree that some sort of “Stamina” function could be useful for preventing late-game characters from being able to stand in the middle of the street and wipe out an entire army of Zs with a zweihander.

[ChristopherWalken]

There’s already a fix pending for penalties to swarmed characters in the open.

The best way to minimize the effectiveness of choke points (which, while a bit ridiculous at the moment, should still be a valid tactic to some degree) would be to improve zombie group AI so they try to encircle and bash down other doors/windows if there’s enough of them.
I don’t know how doable that is though.

[dwarfkoala]

A well balanced strain system will work wonders for a more tactical cataclysm.

There’s already a fix pending for penalties to swarmed characters in the open.

I’m sorry, but I can’t find it in on the pull request list on github. Link or proof?