Skill/Leveling rebalance feedback thread

Oh yea, I was assuming it would be an item instead of a new type of object.

The idea of partially crafted items also has possibilities for half-build projects found in basements, garages, etc. Maybe finding a half-built widget could give you a chance at completing it and/or learning the recipe.

I like that idea. Going into a basement and seeing a half built insert project here as if the previous occupant had a hobby he/she never got to complete.

Handguns seem to develop slower than other gun skills. Anyone else observing this?

What’s the current mechanic again? Is XP gain always based on inflicted damage for guns? Maybe base the system on range for handguns, rewarding more XP for hitting targets at the furthest ranges of a handgun? Then again, that would mean that Rivtech handguns (bullets) would need to be revamped, since their ranges are enormous. Or maybe just reward more XP for those unlikely shots, but with a cap. Should gun skills each have a different approach for XP gain?

I experienced this on version 3204 or 3218. My character had accumulated nice gun skills through an amount of experience that I found fair - rifles (10), shotguns (7), SMGs (7), but then handguns (4), which IMO is way off compared to how much I had used pistols. It should’ve been right there with rifles, I feel.

I guess I also wish the game kept a weapon usage record of some sort? Attacks performed for each weapon category, number of bullets fired, hit percentage, total damage inflicted, average damage per shot, average difficulty of fired shots, average range of fired shots, number of low damage or zero damage hits, number of critical hits… that sort of stuff, in a separate TXT file, for later gawking.

Can you explain this in more depth? I came back to Cataclysm after last playing around the release of 0.6 and I intensely dislike how gaining ranged combat skill works now, insofar as I understand it (which is not very well.)

It used to be you could pick the best weapon available to you at your stats and crafting skill, use it, and you would get better at using it. This was a good system – it worked intuitively and meant that just playing normally would eventually get you where you needed to be. Melee (as far as I can tell) still works this way, but when I try to use a bow with an average-statted character I get no skill gain at all, and the only advice I could find on my own was “just use a blowgun to train,” which worked, but means that if I want to improve my archery I have to use a separate non-optimal weapon and grind levels against weak enemies.

Under the old system, the best way to gain skills would be to only attack at point blank. Attacking stuff at range was a very suboptimal way to gain skills.

The new system requires far more xp to gain levels, but compensates for it by increasing skill gain based on distance. Meaning that the xp gain isn’t maximized at point blank, but at the longest range you can keep scoring good enough hits.

Also, you need more perception to keep improving skills with inaccurate weapons.

Archery is relatively badly implemented at the moment and needing to use the blowgun wasn’t intended. I don’t recall anyone describing a good solution to this, though.
Self-bow was supposed to be the archery training weapon, but under the current system it doesn’t work. Self-bow was never properly implemented though, so the blowgun is actually a step forward here. Both of those should probably be removed and short bow should be enabled earlier.

Thanks, it sounds like this might have been a big part of what I was missing. So, boiling this down to pure “what do I care about as a player” – is there a cap on this, or could you share the formula? How high would my perception need to be to use (X) gun or bow and be able to (eventually) train the skill to at least 10?

Formula is something like:
weapon_dispersion + ammo_dispersion < skill_dispersion + type_offset + 15 * rng( 0, perception )
If this is true, skill is trained

Weapon and ammo are displayed on the item.
Skill dispersion is (10 - skill)*45 + (10 - marksmanship)*15
Type offset is a hardcoded variable: 135 for archery, 195 for throwing (sling but not slingshot), 0 for everything else. This makes bows and slings easier to gain skill in.
rng(x, y) is a random value from x to y (including both x and y).

The skill gain itself depends on how good the hit was: headshot exp is proportional to range, less accurate shots give less exp: [headshot exp]/2 for good shot, then headshot/3, then /4, then /5.
Any shot that trains the skill (even if it is a total miss) also gives some flat exp, dependent weakly on burst size.

So to (slowly, and relying very heavily on the RNG for the last level or two) reach level 10 with a Reflex Recurve bow (120 dispersion) firing Fletched Sharpened Metal Arrows (285 dispersion) I would need a Perception of 15 or greater.

Is that correct?

(I know those are actually very inaccurate arrows and so not ideal in any case, I mention them only because that’s what I was using when I wasn’t able to train at all and couldn’t tell why.)

Looks like 18 to me (assuming you want both archery and marksmanship):

120 + 285 <= 0 + 135 + 15 * x
270 <= 15 * x
18 <= x

(I got the formula a tiny bit wrong in the earlier post, it’s <= not <)

I’m thinking that perhaps we could avoid a lot of the weird breaking points where you stop being able to raise a weapon skill because of stats or dispersion by having it so if you fail to meet those minimum requirements you still gain skill, just at a reduced rate - instead of not being able to raise it at all.

Which leads to the equivalent complaint that leveling is “strangely slow” or similar. It doesn’t fix the perceived problem, and now you have something encouraging you to just grind more instead of doing something about it.

I feel that ‘strangely slow’ would still be better than ‘not happening at all’.

Besides, we already have a message for when you can’t level a skill further with your current equipment - why not a message that would say something to the effect of ‘you would be learning this skill a lot faster if you were using better tools’?

I’d like to reference ‘dodging’ in this manner
for instance, back in 0.C it was possible to level your dodge to around level 30 by using protection and letting a bunch of weak mobs pound you all night long

whilst possible, There were severe diminishing returns which almost nullified.
as such it became more of a matter of ‘wasted time’

Especially with skill decay. Time you’d spend inefficiently grinding a single skill would erode other skills.

If anything i’d like some more motivation to play with skillrust off.
By that i mean to suggest- balancing around skillrust :slight_smile:

This might be better in its own thread, but I’ll just toss it in here first regarding gun xp and range. It might be good to have a separate CQB skill for extreme close range or fighting a la John Wick and similar movies–where the gun fighting is as close to brawling as it is to shooting. If extreme range attacks ever become more doable, an analogous sniping skill would fit. Just a thought

Adding Gun-Fu as a martial art could be interesting. Base it on pistol whipping, throws/trips, give bonus to hit/damage on downed enemies and possibly faster reloads. Might be a little hard to balance.

There have been many requests for firearm-compatible martial arts to be added, It’s always been turned down…

I’ve got an alternative in my mind however.
Instead a martial art- two different skills.

Splitting Melee into One-handed Melee & Two-handed Melee.
CBQ would be split between the two aswell as all the melee weapons

As hitting with a firearm falls into melee anyway it wouldn’t make much of a difference however.
Alternatively there could be a set of moves soley based on melee skill and weather or not you’re wielding a two-handed weapon ( or firearm ) or not.

This really isn’t the place to discuss it however, If anyone’s interested please open a new thread >_>
[center][sup][sup]I’m an exception[/sup][/sup][/center]

Enchanced memory banks CBM Doesn’t seem to be draining any power in the past couple experimentals
not sure if intentional but it’s a great change to the average tech-addicted survivor.

It should only activate when you are going to forget something, even then I think it takes the smallest ammount of energy the game has… unless I am mistaken. I wouldn’t actually know… I haven’t installed that yet :frowning: