Request to focus on Z levels and NPC overhaul for next few releases

Binky · 2014-03-12T01:57:57.000Z

Saying ‘everyone should be allowed to submit whatever they like as long as it doesn’t break the game’ will lead to a terrible drop in coherence and a drop in quality. It can’t not do, because everyone has a different vision and those visions won’t work together. Open source has never meant ‘anyone goes’ - open source works with a coherent vision and guidance (or a strong review process like DCSS), and at the moment DDA doesn’t have one. The design document is a good starting point but more guidance for the direction of development could only help.

To be honest, I wouldn’t mind if a key developer said ‘I want this game to have MLP references in’ or whatever as long as for the main branch there was some sort of coherence/stricter addition policy, as there’s a lot of crap that gets through. What saddens me is that the game has such potential, and I’ve seen so many people turned off by the vanity additions and junk.

This really isn’t an attack, and I know developers/contributors feel like their hard work isn’t being appreciated - but that’s really not the case. It’s an appreciation of that which makes me feel so strongly about this, as the poor content additions are watering down your excellent work.

i2amroy · 2014-03-12T07:40:13.000Z

I will agree some of the crazier things (such as heat blades) should probably be moved to a similar default mod to allow for easy toggling. References (such as Granades) can probably be moved to another (call it “Wacky Cataclysm”, maybe). Things like survivor suits I’m not so sure about. I mean yes, they probably need some balancing, but if a person was living in some sort of crazy apocalypse then something like that is probably what they would end up wearing in the long run after all.

As for commits yes, large amounts of commits can be a problem, but it tends to be when we have a large number of not just new item+recipe things. Reviewing an item/recipe addition PR takes literally a quick glance for any grievous balance/theme problems. Adding a new item use function, on the other hand, or editing game code requires the developer not only to check to make sure that it works (i.e. compiles and does what it is supposed to) but also that the method used to accomplish the task is sound and cost effective, and the formatting of the code added/changed is good as well. So while it is a problem, it’s not really related to the “mass amount of item/recipe PR’s” idea, but is rather a sign that we are actually making forward progress on other things.

juliawang87 · 2014-03-12T23:07:14.000Z

halberdsturgeon:

It isn’t on topic for this thread, but personally I don’t care whether it holds up other development or not - the addition of vanity items and unimportant clutter at this point detracts from the game for me. Having to rifle through neck ties, tie clips, hair pins, cufflinks and other trash everywhere I go is annoying.

Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)

halberdsturgeon · 2014-03-13T00:10:29.000Z

No. That’s the worst sort of reductive, pedantic statement, and I’ve seen it so many times that it’s become infuriating. Variety is fine, I’ve asked for it in the past. But too many trivial additions in one focused area dilutes the rest of the game. It isn’t an all or nothing equation. And with the introduction of the mod manager, there is no reason why both people who love all the random clutter in their game and people who find it distracting can’t both get what they want - aside from people like you, who feel the need to get offended at any kind of critical statement at all.

KA101 · 2014-03-13T00:22:21.000Z

FWIW hairpins just got a use aside from helping your hairstyle: you can improvised-lockpick with 'em. Takes about 6 Mechanics to have a chance, and best to keep a soldering iron or similar available to repair it.

One less “trash” item, I guess.

Binky · 2014-03-13T01:04:27.000Z

halberdsturgeon:

No. That’s the worst sort of reductive, pedantic statement, and I’ve seen it so many times that it’s become infuriating. Variety is fine, I’ve asked for it in the past. But too many trivial additions in one focused area dilutes the rest of the game. It isn’t an all or nothing equation. And with the introduction of the mod manager, there is no reason why both people who love all the random clutter in their game and people who find it distracting can’t both get what they want - aside from people like you, who feel the need to get offended at any kind of critical statement at all.

Hear hear - there’s far too much reductionism and taking things to their logical extremes on this forum, whilst taking things severely personally. Just as it’s an open source game and everyone can contribute - everyone can criticise as well. I really wish everyone would take a step back and understand that we’re all extremely grateful for the work being done and that any criticism is out of a wish to make the game better.

Regardless, mods are the way forward - and a non-defaulted on ‘expanded/cosmetic’ mod (including clothing, consumables and other stuff which is non-normal/fandom/niche) would sort out a lot of the problems with some people feeling it being bloat. I know earlier their was an edict that everything already in the game had to be defaulted on - I agree for the most part, but I really don’t think it’s necessary for the ‘expanded’ items.

Zireael · 2014-03-13T18:43:05.000Z

Do I smell z-levels?

https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6560

This is but a small step, but an important one.

Shoes · 2014-03-14T12:50:27.000Z

[quote=“KA101, post:73, topic:5349”]FWIW hairpins just got a use aside from helping your hairstyle: you can improvised-lockpick with 'em. Takes about 6 Mechanics to have a chance, and best to keep a soldering iron or similar available to repair it.

One less “trash” item, I guess.[/quote]

Well, if you have level 6 mechanics, I don’t think breaking into a locked house is much of an issue :x Unless there is new content that has locked doors.

Caconym · 2014-03-14T12:59:40.000Z

Considering you can make a few dozen (makeshift)lockpick kits with common material from the start with no skills.

grisamentum · 2014-03-15T03:02:48.000Z

juliawang87:

[quote=“halberdsturgeon, post:60, topic:5349”]It isn’t on topic for this thread, but personally I don’t care whether it holds up other development or not - the addition of vanity items and unimportant clutter at this point detracts from the game for me. Having to rifle through neck ties, tie clips, hair pins, cufflinks and other trash everywhere I go is annoying.

Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)[/quote]

Yeah, I have to agree with other responses to this. While I am very sensitive to any claim that Kevin and other people are focusing on the “wrong” things, your dismissive, strawman/false-choice dilemma response is beyond insulting; it’s downright stupid.

Criticizing the variety of randomly spawned items is perfectly legitimate. It does not automatically imply the opposite (no variety, as you described). If you can’t talk about things like a grownup, stop posting.

pulsefrequency · 2014-03-15T04:45:49.000Z

juliawang87:

[quote=“halberdsturgeon, post:60, topic:5349”]It isn’t on topic for this thread, but personally I don’t care whether it holds up other development or not - the addition of vanity items and unimportant clutter at this point detracts from the game for me. Having to rifle through neck ties, tie clips, hair pins, cufflinks and other trash everywhere I go is annoying.

Guess we should reduce all food to [Meat item], [Veggie item], and [Junk food] for you, huh?

The vast array of miscellaneous stuff is very immersive for me. Luckily for you, with the .json framework you should be perfectly capable of going through the files and deleting everything you don’t like to make the game you want to play. And the rest of us can be happy with how it is.

(edit: Kevin is totally right to be ignoring most of you.)[/quote]

i agree that the amount of content is very immersive
… and i guess that Kevin should probably focus on … working on the game? in a general sort of sense…?
but no… we should not reduce all food to meat veggie junk food…

give love to the forum hehe

Zireael · 2014-03-15T08:17:22.000Z

Let’s talk about Z-levels and NPCs here…

BeigeSand · 2014-03-15T14:51:13.000Z

Obviously, we just need to ask LazyCat for help, he could have z-levels and NPC’s finished in like, a week.

Caconym · 2014-03-15T15:01:38.000Z

Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead version 0.A Kaufman released

Expect NPC reworking/map improvement/Z-levels sometime after the heat death of the universe.

John_Candlebury · 2014-03-15T15:07:22.000Z

Just gotta wait a few googleplexes

pulsefrequency · 2014-03-15T18:37:39.000Z

lol i love all these words of encouragement
the next update will come when they finish it
they barely just got done with 0.A

also… if the game simply doesnt support these features until more groundwork is laid…
well all im saying is dont blame the devs if they still have more work to do before npc’s/z-levels can be implemented as we have envisioned them if you dont know a lot about programming… well, its not magic, its real work, and sometimes something just isnt possible or is so impractical as to break or completely change the game

Reservoir · 2014-03-15T19:19:45.000Z

BeigeSand:

Obviously, we just need to ask LazyCat for help, he could have z-levels and NPC’s finished in like, a week.

Obviously, living in your parent’s basement gives you a lot of free time to work on Cata
Sadly most of our devs have lives and jobs and RL stuff and they cant work 24/7 on the game

HunterAlpha1 · 2014-03-15T19:25:54.000Z

Reservoir:

[quote=“BeigeSand, post:81, topic:5349”]Obviously, we just need to ask LazyCat for help, he could have z-levels and NPC’s finished in like, a week.

Obviously, living in your parent’s basement gives you a lot of free time to work on Cata
Sadly most of our devs have lives and jobs and RL stuff and they cant work 24/7 on the game[/quote]Pretty sure Beige was being sarcastic.

Reservoir · 2014-03-15T19:28:08.000Z

HunterAlpha1:

[quote=“Reservoir, post:85, topic:5349”][quote=“BeigeSand, post:81, topic:5349”]Obviously, we just need to ask LazyCat for help, he could have z-levels and NPC’s finished in like, a week.

Obviously, living in your parent’s basement gives you a lot of free time to work on Cata
Sadly most of our devs have lives and jobs and RL stuff and they cant work 24/7 on the game[/quote]Pretty sure Beige was being sarcastic.[/quote]
Obviously

FunsizeNinja123 · 2014-03-16T05:23:42.000Z

I hope.