Religion (please read before jumping to conclusions)

[Leper]

Maybe have a religon skill that gives you some special powers on level x.

This is something I want to absolutely avoid at all costs. Cataclysm is science fiction. Divine intervention is a big no-no for me, unless it’s somehow justified in setting. Even then, would a Netherium monster really care if you worship it, let alone grant you aid? From what I’ve seen the answer is “No, that sucker’s gonna eat you like a gummy worm.”

If there are going to be any special powers they should be a result of something like quantum entanglement, and even then I’d say no. I think artefacts are the exception to the rule because they’re so uncommon and undocumented.

I think we need to keep religion more realistic, whether it be the unified religion or real life religion.

I could be wrong, but I think the rules of Cataclysm are along the lines of outlandish is okay, but use at least semi-plausible pseudo-science to back it up. Otherwise it’ll end up with kitchen sink syndrome, like NetHack.

EDIT:
That said, I really like the idea of being able to choose a religion with the trait, similar to the martial arts traits. I can only see it working if the conducts are implemented though. In my opinion this is unlikely because of the amount of work that would need to go into it.

I’d love for the religious trait to be more than a “x has y effect on your morale by z amount” type deal. Ideally there should be a penalty, a positive, and it should be fun to play. It shouldn’t be too tedious or involve way too many keystrokes. This is where I think things like praying five times a day could be bad, but on the other hand it could force you to make interesting tactical choices.
Do you raid the town now and hope you’re out in time, or do you make sure that you’re devout with your prayer so you can definitely get into heaven? If you don’t pray should your intelligence be lowered by 1 to simulate the anxiety your character would be feeling when thinking these thoughts?

I’d like to see the way the religious trait interacts with drugs, actually. THAT could be an interesting penalty. I’d just want to find a positive a little more interesting than higher morale.

EDIT EDIT:
This is actually how my thought process works, but all typed out. Kind of scary, huh?

[Sheb]

Problem with religious conducts is that it’s going to degenerate into “Religion X actually doesn’t imply Y.” discussions all over the forum. If a modder want to add them, fine, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to have it in the mainline.

[Leper]

Problem with religious conducts is that it’s going to degenerate into “Religion X actually doesn’t imply Y.” discussions all over the forum. If a modder want to add them, fine, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to have it in the mainline.

Yeah, that’s definitely an issue. It’s kind of funny that many holy wars started over that basic concept.

Maybe a goal could be to have randomly generated religions eventually? Similar to the way factions are going to be. That would open up some interesting gameplay and scenarios, especially if religion ends up interacting with factions on a large scale.

I might be wrong, but I think some religious stuff with factions is already planned.

[OzoneH3]

If there are going to be any special powers they should be a result of something like quantum entanglement, and even then I’d say no. I think artefacts are the exception to the rule because they’re so uncommon and undocumented.

We have mutations of all sorts, such a superpower can be just another mutation like X-Men powers just activated through your believe in a specific religion.

I really dont see a realistic religion benefiting the game in any way.

A randomly generated fictional religion on the other hand could have some potential.
Depending on the pros and cons that would come with them.

[Sheb]

It could be a mutation you rationalize with your belief system, but how do you justify an atheist not getting that mutation? Is atheist DNA resistant?

[OzoneH3]

The Atheist would get the mutation as well, why not, its a mutation?!

[Iosyn]

To be honest, it’s a roguelike. Sure, stick religion in. Give us the ability to pray to your chosen deity for a boon.
Pray too often and you might piss him off.

[Sheb]

I don’t know, I think procedurally-generated random religion would break immersion for me.

[Iosyn]

I was thinking something more along the lines of Nethack. It’s real laid back. You wouldn’t even need to use it if you didn’t want to, or you could just be an atheist.
Sometimes praying does nothing, sometimes it grants miracles and depending on the god, sometimes he just takes the piss out of you or punishes you. You can also sacrifice make offerings to your chosen deity. Due to the rather comedic nature of the system I think it would actually decrease the amount of religious rants and generally annoying holier-than-thous that a more in-depth system could generate.

Good old cursed amulets of strangulation. ( @ x @),y==~,
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Aaaanyway, As to the original suggestion I do think the churches and cathedrals could be fleshed out a lot more. Priest robes, brass goblets, grimoires and holy books/symbols etc etc… I think someone found a hidden cultist building of some sort, which would be cool too. Good suggestion Leper. I hear they’re planning to implement religion with factions iirc, but factions will be after NPCs are sorted out. Don’t see why we can’t have some new items in soon though.

[kevin.granade]

0. Don’t say “I was tired when I wrote this, don’t hold it against me”, it’s pointless. If you knew you were tired and can’t stand behind what you wrote, don’t post it, and check that it’s worth posting when you aren’t tired or otherwise impared. That having been said, the disclaimer was also unnecessary because there’s nothing wrong with it.
1. Religious powers: NO
2. “Religious” or “Spiritual” trait, sure why not, but it needs down sides to go with the benefits, so it’s not just “take this for free morale”, this is simply a balance issue. The trait ittself should be religion-agnostic (see what I did there?
3. Religious iconography is fine, and feel free to add specific ones, such as the bible or the torah or whatever, I don’t see any point in pretending these things don’t exist, however they shouldn’t have any in-game effects attached to them specific to their particular religion. A caveat to this is that there’s nowhere specific* to spawn Torahs and such, since the religious buildings we have in-game are fairly specifically christian.
4. More (specific) religious buildings, yes please.

• Of course they’d still spawn in normal library collections, there’s just nowhere to guarantee their spawn.

[detahramet]

No religious powers?
But…
But…
How else will i get the power to shoot Buddha-Jesus-FSM-Muhamed-Zues-Beams out of eye and immolate babies?

[Sheb]

Why would the religious trait need a downside if it cost creation points?

[system]

[quote=“detahramet, post:16, topic:2842”]No religious powers?
But…
But…
How else will i get the power to shoot Buddha-Jesus-FSM-Muhamed-Zues-Beams out of eye and immolate babies?[/quote]

With the power of, RELIGION!

[xLemor]

Religions are bad m’kay?

[detahramet]

…do not go there xLemor. It will derail this already precarious thread.

[Iosyn]

Why would the religious trait need a downside if it cost creation points?

God help me, I laughed.

Anyway when I wrote that other post I added the weird disclaimer thing because I’d come back from the pub at 3am with no rest the night before either, I was smashed. Fun night out anyway. As to the no spiritual powers thing I actually kind of expected it, kind of a shame as I’ve always loved nethack though.

So, anyone recommend any decent churchy items for inclusion? Crucifix is a no brainer. Communion goblet? Maybe use them as a melee weapon on par with a wrench or hammer? You’ll have to forgive me I’m not really up to date on the paraphernalia of most other religions. The only other thing I can think of is that weird staff Buddhist monks carry which might make a nice weapon. Y’know, that thing with the rings on the end.

And as we’re thinking about religious stuff, it would be nice to beef up the evil cultist side of thing-- grimoires, skulls etc.
As to religious books and evil cultist grimoires, I can see them spawning in mansion libraries, those that have them.

[Hyena_Grin]

I don’t see any issue with real-life religions being represented in the game. Preferably with a distribution that mimics reality. At least in New England, christian places of worship should dramatically outnumber those of other religions.

I think that providing some kind of bonus just for being religious is a tricky thing. I’d be inclined to just have everyone get the same morale bonus from all holy books and just let the player decide which one (if any) their character reads.

Alternatively, if they put in the more advanced likes/preferences system that was talked about, you could handle religion with it by making a religious character prefer a particular religion’s icons and texts while disliking the texts of others. Or not have a preference at all (agnostic) or simply disliking them all (atheist). Assuming preferences are handled with point values or something similar, being an atheist would provide a preference point to put elsewhere.

My main concern really is that being religious might be represented as being flatly beneficial over being non-religious. I don’t like the idea of the game basically saying ‘if you’re religious then here’s some benefits for you! If you’re not religious, sorry.’ But it’s hard to think of ways in which atheism/agnosticism could be represented with bonuses that everyone would agree upon.

Edit: Heh. You could introduce Atheism as a ‘flaw’ that gives you points in exchange for not getting anything from religious texts. Essentially trading religion for skill. But I twitch slightly at the characterization of atheism as a ‘flaw.’

[FunsizeNinja123]

Well maybe some religons can have a bonus to one skill or something. Being atheist will give you… hmm…

[kevin.granade]

And this is exactly why people were shying away from it. There’s a cross-dresser benefit that makes you happy for wearing opposite-gender-specific clothes, so why not similar for being religious. shrug

[Elembis]

I’m fine with some more religious items in churches/cathedrals. But there’s no way there should be a Religious trait if all it does is give you a morale boost when reading a holy book. We wouldn’t make a Mystery Novel Fan trait just to provide that effect when reading a mystery novel, would we?

I think we’re grasping at straws for ways to make religious characters different. There’s no reason to do that. In a zombie apocalypse, you need water, food, and shelter just as badly no matter what your religious beliefs are. Maybe you’d pray between zombie-bashing – that’s fine. Maybe you’d urinate between zombie-bashing, too, but that doesn’t mean we need to model it in the game.