Regarding the removal of the reviving zombies option

[pulsefrequency]

[quote=“Gatleos, post:35, topic:2974”]I really don’t mind revival in general, it’s just the GRIND of butchering everything that bothers me. At the very least I’d like to have butchering optimized (do we really need a Y/N prompt for this?) and improve the visibility of corpses. The annoying part for me is not being able to see which corpses I haven’t butchered.

Ideally there should be a separate symbol for corpses, it’s just awkward giving them the same symbol as food. They should also be placed on top of the stack so you can see them over the other items. That way you could clearly see which corpses needed butchering and quickly move between them without having to double-check.[/quote]
now THIS guy has his priorities straight. hear, hear

[GlyphGryph]

Avoid personal attacks and raging at people. In addition to being against forum policy, they undermine your own arguments. It’s also considered poor taste to post multiple times in a row, and you should probably use the edit button instead.

[Rivet]

I’d like to point out that some of us don’t mind the option being removed at all.

It’s just another part of the gameplay; perhaps mooshing dead zeds could be streamlined a bit, but I personally like the reviving zombies mechanic. Keeps us vigilant, and it makes casually wiping out giant hordes more difficult.

Also, coming to any place where people are working on a project and saying, ‘Even though I just got here I already know how to do everything y’all are doing, and I know how to do it better. Let me enlighten you as to how you suck, and insist that you do your project according to the way I want you to do it.’ is never going to win friends or influence people, other than to influence them to show you the door. The same goes for responding to such a statement with ad hominem nastiness: it just makes you look as bad as the person you’re attacking.

If you want to make Cataclysm better try this: register on Git, grab a copy of the program, and start adding contributions and PR’ing them instead of trying to impose your will on folks on the forums.

Making Cataclysm better is surprisingly easy once you figure out Git, and as long as what you contribute is useable and high enough quality for inclusion the top dogs are happy for the help.

[Gatleos]

Well said.

[Protester]

i always kept it on, no matter what the inconvenience. to me its just another gameplay mechanic, like having to eat or drink.

[kilozombie]

Lazy’s actually got a point on the second part:

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:52, topic:2974”]If this is your attitude discussion is pointless.

In other words, there are 32 people active on the forums that want the option added.

it's an average, not any kind of absolute value. It means that on average that's the ratio you will get. Unless you are unreasonable enough to expect next 50 people will be much different on average) than first 50.[/quote]

[i2amroy]

The replacing of the revive zombies option with a monster flag is an upgrade. It means that you will still have the same amount of control over zombie spawns that you had with the option, and then you will have even more control. I’m not sure why anyone would not support the removal when it’s being replaced with something that performs the exact same functions better.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“kilozombie, post:60, topic:2974”]Lazy’s actually got a point on the second part:

it’s an average, not any kind of absolute value. It means that on average that’s the ratio you will get. Unless you are unreasonable enough to expect next 50 people will be much different on average) than first 50.[/quote]

No, he doesn’t. Making a “poll” into a statistically valid sample requires very careful controls to prevent bias. In this case the sample is tiny, self-selecting, and more strongly self-selecting for people with a particular agenda.

All you can say (maybe) is that 32 people say they want an option, or at least did when they answered as such. There isn’t sufficient rigor here to project that result across the entire forum population, or even a significant subset of it. For one thing the number of people who viewed the poll dwarfs the number who answered at all, indicating that the vast majority is actually “don’t care enough to answer”. This is a problem systemic to forum polls, if the participants of a poll self-select, and even more so if they have a string stake in the outcome, it throws all statistical applicability right out the window.

Specifically regarding, “expect next 50 people will be much different on average”, actually I do expect that the next 50 people would answer differently, because the only people with a strong incentive to answer are in the “yes” group, and that group is tapped out, whereas the “don’t care” group is huge and underrepresented in the poll.

[i2amroy]

What is better? You don’t need any more control, it would be nothing but redundancy and bloat.

More customizability is 99.9% of the time a good thing (in fact it’s one of the main things people were arguing with against with the removal of the zombie revival option). I can’t think of a single time I’ve heard a complaint from someone because they were able to customize the game to match what they wanted it to be, while I’ve heard thousands of complaints when people can’t.

You already have revival flag, in a way. Revival only makes sense for zombies, that 's what “zombie” means. So when you want to define a monster to have a potential for revival you simply define its type as “zombie”, it doesn’t need any other flag. And then if you want to make zombie type monsters revive or not you simply set only a single flag that applies to all zombie monsters instead of adding or deleting 50 individual flags.

Except that setting it as a “zombie” also defines it to have several other things that apply to zombies as a whole (an example is some basic fear/aggression triggers). What if I want to mod in a creature that revives after a short period of time but doesn’t follow those same triggers as zombies? (An example off the top of my head would be an earth elemental that revives itself over time). Forcing a player to use an inferior system when you can just as easily use a much more flexible one is nothing but silliness and an illogical clinging to “the old way”.

[Cockatrice]

Zombie corpses don’t revive, infected human corpses do. Instead of reviving zombies maybe it would be better to spawn more human corpses laying around that could rise up at random times. Morale penalty should prevent people from going around butchering those corpses. The idea is to provide additional challenge and element of surprise, but likely it wouldn’t work as people would butcher those corpses regardless of morale penalty which would turn the feature into useless, repetitive and tedious task, as is butchering zombie corpses now.

[system]

Zombie corpses don’t revive, infected human corpses do. Instead of reviving zombies maybe it would be better to spawn more human corpses laying around that could rise up at random times. Morale penalty should prevent people from going around butchering those corpses. The idea is to provide additional challenge and element of surprise, but likely it wouldn’t work as people would butcher those corpses regardless of morale penalty which would turn the feature into useless, repetitive and tedious task, as is butchering zombie corpses now.

Very good idea, I support that.

[Cockatrice]

[quote=“Cockatrice, post:64, topic:2974”]Zombie corpses don’t revive, infected human corpses do. Instead of reviving zombies maybe it would be better to spawn more human corpses laying around that could rise up at random times. Morale penalty should prevent people from going around butchering those corpses. The idea is to provide additional challenge and element of surprise, but likely it wouldn’t work as people would butcher those corpses regardless of morale penalty which would turn the feature into useless, repetitive and tedious task, as is butchering zombie corpses now.

Very good idea, I support that.[/quote]

But my conclusion was that it’s not actually a good idea. Sounds interesting in theory, but in practice would fail to deliver that element of surprise as long as people can actually butcher those corpses, because they would, and that would be repetitive and boring. To maybe fix that I guess infected human corpses could still be able to rise even if you butcher them, but as skeletons, or ghosts/goo in case you scatter or pick up the bones/meet.

[kilozombie]

There isn’t actually any difference between “infected” and “zombies”, IIRC. Everyone’s got the

goo. Everyone who dies (and has drunk water from the main grid) is gonna turn into a zombie, and the goo will reform their corpses unless completely destroyed.

[GlyphGryph]

Since the last poll was kind of absurdly biased and I feel like farting around, I made a new poll! Whoo!

[Jack_Slinger]

The way I saw the pulping mechanic was as a way to make it more difficult for you to simply clear huge areas of city making them completely harmless. So for example killing and disposing all the zombies in a small area and then building a base there is easily possible but clearing an entire gigantic city will take far more work to make safe.

Just the way I thought it was supposed to work and haven’t seen it mentioned so far. Also in my opinion reviving monsters should be moved from an option to the monster file as was suggested as this should allow greater scope for modding.

[Cockatrice]

[quote=“Jack Slinger, post:69, topic:2974”]The way I saw the pulping mechanic was as a way to make it more difficult for you to simply clear huge areas of city making them completely harmless. So for example killing and disposing all the zombies in a small area and then building a base there is easily possible but clearing an entire gigantic city will take far more work to make safe.

Just the way I thought it was supposed to work and haven’t seen it mentioned so far. Also in my opinion reviving monsters should be moved from an option to the monster file as was suggested as this should allow greater scope for modding.[/quote]

It doesn’t increase difficulty, just tediousness. Reviving monsters should be removed, majority of people clearly don’t want it, and the rest probably don’t know how to play the game so they have no idea how repetitive and boring can butchering hundreds of corpses be.

[kevin.granade]

Feel free to stop updating at the point before the option was removed and wait until moddable monsters land to update. Choices, you have them.

[youtoo]

@John Candlebury: as ALREADY POSTED! The kickstarter programmer dude is adding a mod manager. To make modding the game easier. One of us will make a mod to make this an option.

I would think this ends the discussion. This is the beauty of the mod manager. Ill be turning it off when I go to 50x zombies myself. However, I can wait for a bit for the mod manager.

[Morrigi]

May I ask why we can’t just shoot the bodies to make sure the zombies stay down? Even a 9mm pistol is going to do a lot more traumatic damage a lot faster than a blade will, especially at point-blank against a stationary target.

If a zombie can be finished off by 2-3 hits from a crowbar, why not a gun?

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“youtoo, post:72, topic:2974”]@John Candlebury: as ALREADY POSTED! The kickstarter programmer dude is adding a mod manager. To make modding the game easier. One of us will make a mod to make this an option.

I would think this ends the discussion. This is the beauty of the mod manager. Ill be turning it off when I go to 50x zombies myself. However, I can wait for a bit for the mod manager.[/quote]

I dont understand why you told me this, i actually made this thread before that was proposed and I am 100% in favor of the change

Also, I believe it will be better to continue any discussion in the new thread so i’ll lock this