# Rebalancing Crossbows

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [June 12, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743 "2013-06-12T11:11:26Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/1 "2013-06-12T11:11:26Z")

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As it stands, crossbows are pretty much always inferior to longbows if you can use longbows (which obviously not everyone can), not for their damage but for the inconvenience involved in loading them and firing them taking two separate turns.

I understand that crossbows DO truly take a long time to load, but when the only other difference between two weapons is the need to press f-r-f instead of f-f to fire twice in a row, the latter is always more convenient. Archery’s only meaningful damage comes in the form of critical hits and headshots, so the damage difference between crossbows and bows (if there is one) is negligible.

What about firing modes? It’s possible to enable burst fire on ARs and SMGs, and pistols with the proper mod, so would it be possible to implement a separate auto-reload mode for crossbows that _DOESN’T_ change their increased loading time? It wouldn’t remove the original two-step firing mode for situations where positioning and timing are paramount, of course, but it would make it much easier when hunting or clearing out green zombies and the player is far enough away.

If the player loads their shot and wishes to cancel the firing action, they would simply end up with a loaded crossbow as usual.

And as a separate crossbow idea, what about making steel bolts craftable and give steel bolts better armor penetration for hulks and robots and the like? If they were able to pierce through tougher enemies than wooden stuff can, and you could make them out of scrap metal with sufficient skill, it would go a long way to making crossbows viable and effective. I really like them in concept, but they just don’t currently have a use case if the player has access to bows.

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**Author:** ![Stevensonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Stevensonz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stevensonz)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/2 "2013-06-12T12:06:28Z")

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[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating\_crossbow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow) what the game needs except it should be a modernized one with high ammo capacity maybe 10-15 bolts per magazine, but at a lower accuracy cost and of course heavier and takes more volume. There are a lot of videos that has modern repeating crossbows or as they say pistol-Xbows. Prefer if they can burst for 3-5 bolts with a manageable recoil

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**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/3 "2013-06-12T12:42:17Z")

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That’d be cool, but I’m more interested in making the current ones tolerable to use.

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**Author:** ![halberdsturgeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ab992/32.png) [@halberdsturgeon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/halberdsturgeon)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/4 "2013-06-12T13:27:42Z")

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I don’t understand your complaint at all. I’ve played characters that used crossbows exclusively and found them to be preferable to bows in almost every way. Steel crossbow bolts are the only archery-based ammunition that can take down armoured enemies effectively (two-three headshots for a hulk versus eight or so for carbon fiber arrows; there is virtually no way to destroy mechanical enemies with any bow/arrow combination, whereas crossbows have little trouble), and can be acquired in virtually limitless quantities thanks to crossbow traps. Crossbows also reload quicker if your character’s strength is higher.

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**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/5 "2013-06-12T13:44:01Z")

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You don’t seem to understand.  
I’m not saying they aren’t effective enough. They are.

It’s that needing to reload after firing every single shot is just plain annoying, and it makes me reach for my bow where I don’t have to do that.  
If I find something a bow can’t deal with, a sawn-off Saiga sure will. It’s much more tolerable than spending every other turn manually reloading. All I’m asking for is an optional fire mode for crossbows that auto-loads the bolt like longbows auto-load the arrow.

And about steel bolts, you can’t account for the presence of crossbow traps in a randomly generated world, nor does it make any sense that you can’t craft a tiny metal rod when you can build an entire car from scratch.

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**Author:** ![Scheuche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@Scheuche](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Scheuche)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/6 "2013-06-12T14:58:54Z")

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> [@Mdnthrvst](#):
>
> It’s that needing to reload after firing every single shot is just plain annoying,

Considering it takes 8 rounds or sth. to reload the crossbow making reloading automatic could really screw you over, so…

Edit: After reading the first post again, i saw your firemode suggestion. Seems like an reasonable option to me.

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**Author:** ![Stevensonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Stevensonz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stevensonz)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/7 "2013-06-12T15:01:10Z")

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```
"id": "e_rep_crossbow",
"type": "GUN",
"symbol": "(",
"color": "green",

```

“name”: “electric repeating crossbow”,  
“description”: “A mechanically altered superior crossbow. that uses an electric motor,steel chain and metal magazine box for storing bolts. allows continous firing of bolts, at a cost. Powered by UPS.”,  
“rarity”: 1,  
“price”: 1400,  
“material”: [“iron”, “wood”],  
“flags”: [“USE\_UPS”, “MODE\_BURST”],  
“skill”: “archery”,  
“ammo”: “bolt”,  
“weight”: 30,  
“volume”: 14,  
“bashing”: 15,  
“cutting”: 0,  
“to\_hit”: -1,  
“ranged\_damage”: -2,  
“range”: 12,  
“accuracy”: 25,  
“recoil”: 18,  
“durability”: 6,  
“burst”: 30,  
“clip\_size”: 30,  
“reload”: 500  
},

{

perhaps you want these kind of imba crossbow? well still tweaking it a bit to adjust burst going to red recoil ratio and 18 recoil is at par with 9mm smg standard recoil so… then again firing single shots with these will still increase recoil so it’s a decent pay-off or if balance is needed adjust recoil (needs opinions on suitable recoil though)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/8 "2013-06-12T16:11:21Z")

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Again, I didn’t say they were weak, and while that’s cool and all, the UPS requirement is something of a turnoff.  
I don’t want more powerful crossbows. I just want there to be a voluntary option for loading and firing to act as a single input, like Bows.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stevensonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Stevensonz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stevensonz)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/9 "2013-06-12T16:22:05Z")

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well we can take off the UPS powered not sure how it would be balanced without it though as holding 30 rounds for a crossbow is a bit overkill without some sort of high-tier drawback.  
also currently working on a plain repeating crossbow as well.

well crossbows do take time to load if you set it shoot and reload mode by changing the flag well your gonna be screwed when your surrounded as the long reload time even with str reduction does not equal insta load like bows do.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/10 "2013-06-12T16:28:43Z")

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FYI, an auto-crossbow isn’t going into mainline. Then again that’s what modding is for.

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**Author:** ![Stevensonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Stevensonz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stevensonz)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/11 "2013-06-12T16:41:07Z")

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> [@Kevin Granade](#):
>
> FYI, an auto-crossbow isn’t going into mainline. Then again that’s what modding is for.

so even the old medieval repeating crossbow with 5-10 rounds and single fire isn’t going in mainline?

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**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/12 "2013-06-12T17:05:38Z")

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> [@Stevensonz](#):
>
> well crossbows do take time to load if you set it shoot and reload mode by changing the flag well your gonna be screwed when your surrounded as the long reload time even with str reduction does not equal insta load like bows do.

I know that. That’s why I said to make it an option for when timing isn’t critical.

I am not saying completely change crossbow behavior by default; all I’m asking for is a fire mode where they can be loaded and fired in a single turn. I know this might not be ideal in certain situations, but that’s why it’s just an option. Now do you understand?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/13 "2013-06-12T18:12:41Z")

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> [@Stevensonz](#):
>
> [quote=“Kevin Granade, post:10, topic:1743”]FYI, an auto-crossbow isn’t going into mainline. Then again that’s what modding is for.

so even the old medieval repeating crossbow with 5-10 rounds and single fire isn’t going in mainline?[/quote]

A _repeating_ crossbow wouldn’t be problematic, I said (and you posted) a crossbow with _automatic fire_, which is totally different and fairly absurd.

BTW, a burst size of 30 matches the fastest firing rates of anything in the game. What burst:30 means is that you fire up to 30 rounds in a single burst action (6 seconds).

The cho-ku-no also reportedly has a vastly reduced range and power compared to a similar crossbow of contemporary design, which makes sense as the draw must be low enough to work the action rapidly. So keep in mind that for a repeating crossbow to be reasonable, it will have to have much reduced performance in exchange for the repeating feature, not just have the repeating ability taked on to the ordinary crossbow stats.

And no, making a “powered repeating crossbow” that has stats similar to a regular crossbow but a repeat-fire mechanism doesn’t fly either.

What would make sense for a powered crossbow would be one with a very high draw and mechanical assist, it would take a very long time to reload, but would deal an incredible amount of damage (possibly with special heavy quarrels).

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Stevensonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Stevensonz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stevensonz)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/14 "2013-06-12T19:01:32Z")

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{  
“id”: “rep\_crossbow”,  
“type”: “GUN”,  
“symbol”: “(”,  
“color”: “green”,  
“name”: “repeating crossbow”,  
“description”: “A custom made mechanical large crossbow, with a wooden magazine that holds 10 bolts. Single bolt reload. Bolts fired from this weapon have a good chance of remaining intact for re-use.”,  
“rarity”: 1,  
“price”: 1000,  
“material”: [“iron”, “wood”],  
“flags”: [“ALWAYS\_TWOHAND”, “RELOAD\_ONE”, “MODE\_BURST”],  
“skill”: “archery”,  
“ammo”: “bolt”,  
“weight”: 16,  
“volume”: 8,  
“bashing”: 13,  
“cutting”: 0,  
“to\_hit”: -1,  
“ranged\_damage”: -2,  
“range”: 6, (was 8) looking at cho-ko-nu 6 seems to be a decent number keeping in mind that steel bolts adds +4 range  
"accuracy": 25, (thinking of raising it to 30 ish due to it being fired from the waist position)  
“recoil”: 15, (still needs tweaks due to it fired from waist position and imitating a pumping action with lever)  
“durability”: 6,  
“burst”: 3,  
“clip\_size”: 10, (over all this looks balanced though reading on some materials 15 rounds is available)  
“reload”: 100  
},

needs review and balance opinions on this one not sure exactly how close it is to a cho-ku-no type one especially the range been thinking of editing it to 6 range cause steel bolts do add some range and on recoil issues I just set 15 to get burst fire have recoil (which simulates mad pumping reducing aim accuracy)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Shoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Shoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Shoes)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/15 "2013-06-12T19:03:26Z")

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> [@Kevin Granade](#):
>
> What would make sense for a powered crossbow would be one with a very high draw and mechanical assist, it would take a very long time to reload, but would deal an incredible amount of damage (possibly with special heavy quarrels).

Would be neat to have a “charge up” time, as the mechanisms do their thing. You would be free to keep running during this time.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mdnthrvst](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mdnthrvst/32/13_2.png) [@Mdnthrvst](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mdnthrvst)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/16 "2013-06-12T20:30:28Z")

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Stevensonz:

“description”: “A custom-made mechanical crossbow, with a wooden magazine that holds 10 bolts. Bolts fired from this weapon have a good chance of remaining intact for re-use.”,

I may not be able to code, but I can write. You’re welcome.

I also like how everyone’s ignoring my suggestion to debate some ridiculous ancient Chinese pea shooter.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/17 "2013-06-12T20:40:07Z")

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Cool, I’ll need to dig in with the exact numbers, but in broad outline that seems like a good approximation of a cho-ku-no. The weight and volume can be lowered a bit actually, something in the 16/8 ballpark.

> [@Shoes](#):
>
> Would be neat to have a “charge up” time, as the mechanisms do their thing. You would be free to keep running during this time.

Interesting, that gives me a mental image of firing off a huge bolt, then hitting a button and slinging the crossbow over a sholder while a motor whines away. That’s cool.

I think we could manage that by disabing reloading when you fire it, turning it into an active item when activated that has a timer, and when the timer goes of it enables reloading and making itself not active again. Or might just have it handle the reload process itself somehow, anyway, cool concept.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bladerock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@Bladerock](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Bladerock)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/18 "2013-06-12T21:22:49Z")

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[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:13, topic:1743”]A _repeating_ crossbow wouldn’t be problematic.

The cho-ku-no also reportedly has a vastly reduced range and power compared to a similar crossbow of contemporary design, which makes sense as the draw must be low enough to work the action rapidly. So keep in mind that for a repeating crossbow to be reasonable, it will have to have much reduced performance in exchange for the repeating feature, not just have the repeating ability taked on to the ordinary crossbow stats.[/quote]

Modern compound crossbows are very easy to pull. The chinese repeating crossbow was weaker than it’s contemporaries due to the need for an easier pull of the string (So the whole thing would work with a lever pull). One made with modern materials losses a lot less power.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Blaze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Blaze](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Blaze)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/19 "2013-06-12T23:34:15Z")

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Why make crossbows faster? The crossbow was not made to be better than the bow in terms of speed. It sacrificed range and speed for the ability to pierce armor; not to mention it was far easier for an untrained user to fire.

Give it more armor piercing. And if that’s not enough, [make a bigger one](http://images.wikia.com/monsterhunter/images/2/20/HeavyBowgunUser.png).

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![DWC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@DWC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DWC)\
**Post date:** [June 12, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/rebalancing-crossbows/1743/20 "2013-06-12T23:36:50Z")

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Guys, I don’t think OP is asking for auto crossbows or burst-fire crossbows, or putting it’s rate of fire on parity with the longbow or anything.

He just doesn’t want to tap ‘r’ between shots and would rather the game do it for him immediately after firing. It seems like a simple enough request to me.

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