# Profession affects stat maximums on chargen/lowering chargen max stats

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [February 29, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902 "2020-02-29T13:51:15Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 12\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![redxlaser15](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/redxlaser15/32/1573_2.png) [@redxlaser15](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/redxlaser15)\
**Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/1 "2020-02-29T13:51:15Z")

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A conversation that ended up happening in this thread [So, how does the new archery system work?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/so-how-does-the-new-archery-work/19850) got me thinking a little bit.  
It was mentioned how any character on chargen can have 20 strength while being a nerd, which doesn’t really make that much sense. Now, if your profession was something like a cyborg soldier, then sure, maybe.  
This kind of thing can happen a lot very easily, but it can be somewhat reduced by making it so that every profession also has an associated stat limit. As mentioned, this only affects chargen, it can still go higher otherwise.  
It might make sense to slightly lower the maximum on start in the first place, namely for realism, really. Maybe something like 18 max instead, to still allow lots of freedom and power.

Now, in regards to how much this would limit you, it should not be too much, but still give a kind of general idea/feeling for that profession. Your character would still be given a good amount of room to have stats in different areas, but a Teacher can’t punch someone’s skull in and a Basketball Player can’t build his own robot over night. Now, if you happen to be a Bionic Soldier, then you might be able to get up there.

It (theoretically) wouldn’t be all that difficult to make this completely compatible with all current professions by simply making a default amount, which probably should just be set as the maximum allowed.

If someone adds this function to the game, I would _gladly_ update the existing professions myself.

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**Author:** ![Invalid\_Username](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@Invalid\_Username](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Invalid_Username)\
**Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/2 "2020-02-29T15:26:18Z")

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![best of both](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/cataclysmdda/original/2X/3/3663b5226fb6e53da340b51a6e47bf4b103c7fed.jpeg)

Nice stereotyping.

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**Author:** ![Ragno](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/ragno/32/5935_2.png) [@Ragno](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Ragno)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 3:41am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/3 "2020-03-01T03:41:04Z")

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> [@Invalid\_Username](#):
>
> Nice stereotyping.

Gonna agree on this one, is like saying the class nerd has to be an anti/unskilled social person, or like a jock cant have good grade.

Now iirc, the balance comes from the negative traits you have to take to have that many points to put into stats (unless you choose freeform pool)

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**Author:** ![crazykiddeath](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/crazykiddeath/32/5709_2.png) [@crazykiddeath](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/crazykiddeath)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/4 "2020-03-01T05:11:09Z")

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> [@Ragno](#):
>
> Now iirc, the balance comes from the negative traits you have to take to have that many points to put into stats (unless you choose freeform pool)

Exactly this.  
If you play multi pool it’s even worse because to get 20 in one stat you have to tank every other stat to 4.

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**Author:** ![Dialo.Malison](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/dialo.malison/32/7220_2.png) [@Dialo.Malison](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Dialo.Malison)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 7:53am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/5 "2020-03-01T07:53:28Z")

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The maximum starting value for all stats has now been capped at 14 (World Class).

> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/38423>
>
> \#### Summary
> SUMMARY: Balance "Lower max stat cap in character creation to 14"
> …
> 
> \#### Purpose of change
> There's really no reason for the ability to start with more than top-tier athlete stats. Mutants might have higher stats, but that should be done with stat boosting mutations, not with stats taken in character generation.
> 
> \#### Describe the solution
> Lower the cap to 14, and the point at which costs double to 12.
> 
> \#### Describe alternatives you've considered
> A different point at which costs double? I'm not sure what that should be, that's why this is CR.
> 
> \#### Testing
> Make a new character, attempt to increase any stat past 14.

> [@redxlaser15](#):
>
> a Teacher can’t punch someone’s skull in and a Basketball Player can’t build his own robot over night.

Unless that teacher likes to spend his/her free time in the gym lifting weights or the basketball player majored in robotics in college.

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**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 8:49am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/6 "2020-03-01T08:49:58Z")

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> [@Dialo.Malison](#):
>
> The maximum starting value for all stats has now been capped at 14 (World Class).

Hm, why… why take away / limit the freedom of a player to decide how to play his character?

> [@redxlaser15](#):
>
> […] can have 20 strength while being a nerd, which doesn’t really make that much sense.  
> […] namely for realism […]  
> […] a Teacher can’t punch someone’s skull in and a Basketball Player can’t build his own robot over night.

No, just no. I couldn’t disagree more. Limiting attributes “because of (assumed) realism” is just stupid and wrong. Then we could also remove a lot of professions, because “they wouldn’t survive a apocalypse”, reduce the maximum strength of women and the maximum intelligence of men… Let’s not go that way. As most other’s already said; let’s not do stereotypes.

If we would go along your line of “[teacher not strong enough](https://www.williamsondailynews.com/cvn/cv_news/elementary-teacher-muscles-his-way-into-competition/article_34a23cae-a619-5b80-a4ee-2d3d7c100389.html), [basketball player not smart enough](https://www.collegeconsensus.com/features/best-educated-nba-players/)” (to put it blantly), I assume you also think that all and any [underwear model never be able to program](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndsey_Scott) and a [pultry farmer never become a spy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Pujol_Garc%C3%ADa)…

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**Author:** ![anothersimulacrum](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/anothersimulacrum/32/10770_2.png) [@anothersimulacrum](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/anothersimulacrum)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/7 "2020-03-01T17:12:18Z")

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> [@Dialo.Malison](#):
>
> > [@Valase](#):
> >
> > The maximum starting value for all stats has now been capped at 14 (World Class).
> 
> Hm, why… why take away / limit the freedom of a player to decide how to play his character?

Because the switch for max stat cap isn’t separate for freeform and the other point pools, and code to separate that couldn’t go through in the feature freeze we’re now in.

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**Author:** ![Invalid\_Username](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@Invalid\_Username](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Invalid_Username)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 8:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/8 "2020-03-01T20:03:11Z")

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> [@Valase](#):
>
> and the maximum intelligence of men…

But that’s not realistic at all.

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**Author:** ![Tamior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Tamior](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Tamior)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/9 "2020-03-01T21:04:36Z")

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> [@Valase](#):
>
> Hm, why… why take away / limit the freedom of a player to decide how to play his character?

Because lore-wise stats above 14 are not something a human should have.  
In free-form you can take all of the positives for free, but you still abide by what a human can or cannot be in the first place.

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**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/10 "2020-03-01T22:39:41Z")

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> [@Invalid\_Username](#):
>
> > [@Valase](#):
> >
> > and the maximum intelligence of men…
> 
> But that’s not realistic at all.

That’s… that’s the point. Or was that meant sarcastically?

> [@anothersimulacrum](#):
>
> > [@Valase](#):
> >
> > Hm, why… why take away / limit the freedom of a player to decide how to play his character?
> 
> Because the switch for max stat cap isn’t separate for freeform and the other point pools, and code to separate that couldn’t go through in the feature freeze we’re now in.

Yes, as I said, why do it in the first place?

> [@Tamior](#):
>
> Because lore-wise stats above 14 are not something a human should have.  
> In free-form you can take all of the positives for free, but you still abide by what a human can or cannot be in the first place.

Well, I guess that makes sense (at least a bit). And I guess one could install/use mods which influence that later on (StatsThroughSkills/-Kills) or change it with the debugger, if one really wants to. It’s just… it still needs some more balance.

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**Author:** ![anothersimulacrum](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/anothersimulacrum/32/10770_2.png) [@anothersimulacrum](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/anothersimulacrum)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/11 "2020-03-01T23:13:47Z")

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Because it makes sense in every other context outside of freeform.

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**Author:** ![Erk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/erk/32/3871_2.png) [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)\
**Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/profession-affects-stat-maximums-on-chargen-lowering-chargen-max-stats/22902/12 "2020-03-02T07:10:41Z")

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Basically, it was both ridiculous and an enormous balance issue to have players able to start out as superheroes. This slightly encourages more versatile characters, and adds a more clear demarcation of early to late game characters by making superhuman strength and all the perks that go with it something to work towards.

Eventually I assume we might relax it around freeform a bit and it would be reasonable for the “start in midgame” professions like cyborg and experiment to have access to ways to boost stats from the start.