Options menu cleanup

Zireael · 2013-09-10T06:47:16.000Z

I agree with making it a flag, but there should be advanced options for players who want to fine-tune their game.

John_Candlebury · 2013-09-10T07:04:19.000Z

Dont know whats the big deal now, just open the monster definition json remove all the revive flags and copy the file into somewhere else. Then when you want to change the option just swap the original file for the one you changed and viceversa.

kevin.granade · 2013-09-10T13:55:59.000Z

Zireael:

I agree with making it a flag, but there should be advanced options for players who want to fine-tune their game.

The json definitions ARE an advanced options interface, it’s just text-based instead of being a menu in the game. There are too many things you might want to fine-tune for us to break every one out into an option, but they’re all going to be there to be modified in the JSON.
If you don’t think zombies should be able to smell you, you’ll be able to pull that out of the definition, same with revival, or biting, or any other monster ability.
Play around with it, and if your way works really well, post it on the forums, now you’re a modder. Modifying monsters is a first step to making new monsters, and everybody wins then.
You can even do a challenge game with all fast zombies, or high HP zombies, or super slow zombies, etc.

kilozombie · 2013-09-10T15:01:38.000Z

I’m actually liking this idea more and more, so long as the Jsons are as simple as I’ve seen. Just pull up Notepad++ and you’ve got easy access to some pretty cool modding ideas.

kevin.granade · 2013-09-10T15:33:47.000Z

I’m glad there’s a solution that works for (I think) everybody.
I’m totally comitted to everything about the game being super moddable, just not necessarally via the options menu.

hardcore · 2013-09-10T21:29:24.000Z

I'm glad there's a solution that works for (I think) everybody. I'm totally comitted to everything about the game being super moddable, just not necessarally via the options menu.

What is your criteria to decide, for example, “city size” should be an option, but “zombie revive” should not? Isn’t the whole point of World Builder and Mod Manager to actually have all that stuff easily accessible and modifiable as in-game options rather than having people manually edit the files?

i2amroy · 2013-09-10T22:29:16.000Z

Zombie revival is a thing that (should be) linked to individual monsters, thus it should be a flag. City size is linked to world generation, thus it should be an option (since worlds don’t have flags).

Keep in mind that once revival is linked to a flag instead of an option (as is planned) you will actually have more control over revival then before the option was removed since you will be able to control revival on a monster-by-monster basis instead of just a simple on/off.

In this case we are trading a slight amount of ease-of-access in return for a large amount of customizability, a trade that has been deemed “worth-it”.

hardcore · 2013-09-10T23:38:06.000Z

i2amroy:

Zombie revival is a thing that (should be) linked to individual monsters, thus it should be a flag. City size is linked to world generation, thus it should be an option (since worlds don’t have flags).

I don’t see the logic behind that criteria. I don’t see what flag or not flag has to do with anything. Take for example a choice to select particular types of monsters, it’s linked to world generation, so it should be in-game option, but on the other hand it’s a flag linked to individual monsters, so it really shouldn’t. Which is it?

Keep in mind that once revival is linked to a flag instead of an option (as is planned) you will actually have [i]more[/i] control over revival then before the option was removed since you will be able to control revival on a [b]monster-by-monster[/b] basis instead of just a simple on/off.

Flags can be options too. It’s just the question what values can be managed from within the game and what values will require editing files.

In this case we are trading a slight amount of ease-of-access in return for a large amount of customizability, a trade that has been deemed "worth-it".

You don’t have to trade anything. You can import any and as many variables from JSON files and represent it to user as in-game options. If that was not planned to be a feature of Mod Manager then I don’t see the point of Mod Manager at all. If you expect user should be able to modify files to set their desired game parameters then they should also be able to copy those files to appropriate folder. But if you want to help them manage those mods you should help them with more tedious task of editing files, rather than helping them with more trivial task of simply putting those files in appropriate folder.

i2amroy · 2013-09-11T04:19:36.000Z

I think you are a little confused on what exactly flags are. Flags are a piece of data that holds either true/false and is linked to a specific monster/item/tile through either the JSON’s or the JSON like definitions (which will eventually be replaced with JSON’s). Options, on the other hand, are things that link to a specific world, and can store any number of values, either true/false, or integers, or decimal numbers, whatever they are configured to do. Because the zombie revival option will be linked to a monster, and not a world, and because it is true/false, it is inherently defined as a flag, and is or will be therefore defined in the JSON’s. Things like season length, on the other hand, are not true/false and are tied to a specific world, thus making them options that are stored in the options menu.

Things can’t be both an “option” and a “flag”, since the two definitions are inherently separate based on what they are linked too (and what type of data they store).

[quote=“hardcore, post:57, topic:2490”]

In this case we are trading a slight amount of ease-of-access in return for a large amount of customizability, a trade that has been deemed “worth-it”.

You don’t have to trade anything. You can import any and as many variables from JSON files and represent it to user as in-game options. If that was not planned to be a feature of Mod Manager then I don’t see the point of Mod Manager at all. If you expect user should be able to modify files to set their desired game parameters then they should also be able to copy those files to appropriate folder. But if you want to help them manage those mods you should help them with more tedious task of editing files, rather than helping them with more trivial task of simply putting those files in appropriate folder.[/quote]
The idea of the mod manager is to make it easier for people to edit/load different JSON files, exactly as you state. The current ease-of-access loss I was referring to was discussing the current dev version, which has not currently incorporated the mod manager.

hardcore · 2013-09-11T07:54:37.000Z

I think you are a little confused on what exactly flags are. Flags are a piece of data that holds either true/false and is linked to a specific monster/item/tile through either the JSON's or the JSON like definitions (which will eventually be replaced with JSON's).

Whether a variable is boolean, integer or float is absolutely irrelevant.

Options, on the other hand, are things that link to a specific world, and can store any number of values, either true/false, or integers, or decimal numbers, whatever they are configured to do.

So you realize boolean values can be in-game options just as well, and therefore whether a variable is a boolean flag or not is absolutely irrelevant.

Because the zombie revival option will be linked to a monster, and not a world, and because it is true/false, it is inherently defined as a flag, and is or will be therefore defined in the JSON's. Things like season length, on the other hand, are not true/false and are tied to a specific world, thus making them options that are stored in the options menu.

And I asked, whether a choice to select which monster types will spawn should be an in-game option according to that criteria, or not?

Things can't be both an "option" and a "flag", since the two definitions are inherently separate based on what they are linked too (and what type of data they store).

Type of data is absolutely irrelevant. Whether variable is stored in JSON file or anywhere else is also irrelevant. What is preventing you to load any variable from JSON file and represent it to user as an option in some game menu?

The idea of the mod manager is to make it easier for people to edit/load different JSON files, exactly as you state. The current ease-of-access loss I was referring to was discussing the current dev version, which has not currently incorporated the mod manager.

If a variable stored in JSON file can be edited from within some game menu, then each such variable is in fact an in-game option. Are you sure the idea is to make it easier for people to edit JSON files, or is it just to load them?

Weyrling · 2013-09-11T11:33:12.000Z

The kinds of things that should be options are character generation, world generation, interface, queries, etc.

Once there is a mod manager it will be trivial to enable/disable revival, dinosaurs, terminators, aliens, cthulhu, whatever anybody decides to make, you’ll just have to go to said mod manager instead of using the in-game options.
Dramatically changing the contents of a game has almost always been the domain of mods.

i2amroy · 2013-09-11T20:15:46.000Z

hardcore:

-snip-

I’ve already explained that the difference between something that should be a flag and something that should be an option lies in what the option/flag deals with and is linked to. If you have something to say other then just rejecting what I say out of hand and making arguments that don’t actually address the statements they are aimed at I will be happy to respond.

kilozombie · 2013-09-11T20:44:22.000Z

I still hold that this is Lazycat. If it’s not, I am dearly sorry, but I’m going to treat it like you are and ignore your “arguments”, Hardcore.

kilozombie · 2013-09-11T21:11:58.000Z

And the fact that he just made an alt is proof.

John_Candlebury · 2013-09-11T21:14:19.000Z

Yep, definitevly him, even types in the same voice.

i2amroy · 2013-09-11T21:29:39.000Z

Indeed. Welcome back lazy-cat (or someone else who is trolling just as much).

To answer those questions straight just in-case someone else was wondering:

Choice to select which monster types will spawn should be an in-game option according to your criteria, or not?

It's too complex to handle as an "option", since it is stored along with spawn rates. It's actually already in the JSONS in monstergroups.json.

What is preventing you to load any variable from JSON file and represent it to user as an option in some game menu?

Two things: 1) There isn't much point in loading things from the JSON's into the options menu. JSON files are [i]much[/i] more customizable then the options menu and they handle large groups of data (such as item/monster/item spawn/monster spawn definitions) much better then an "option" would. There are programs out there that would be much better at editing a JSON file then the Cataclysm options menu (and if someone were to write a nice Cata-JSON GUI-based editor it would be even easier). 2) JSON files are inherently designed to be able to be added to/removed. Things in the options, on the other hand, are not. Many hardcoded things depend on what various options are set at, and if an "option" that was present in the JSON's was removed it would almost certainly crash things.

To put it simply JSON files are better for handling complex and larger amounts of data that can easily be removed/added/changed (such as an item definition), while options are better at handling small, discrete amounts of information that have a strict and set range of values (such as a single number).

Are you sure the idea is to make it easier for people to edit JSON files, or is it just to load them?

The initial goal of the mod manager is to allow people to load/save groups of JSON edits (mods) and distribute them. It is possible for a GUI editor to be included in or eventually packaged with the mod manager, but it is not in the initial goal.

KA101 · 2013-09-11T22:00:05.000Z

I’m just gonna pop in and suggest that once Galen gets the mod-manager & world-gen stable & released, he or someone else ought to do a brief HOWTO on editing the JSONs.

(Most I’ve ever accomplished was fixing a typo in an item name.)

i2amroy · 2013-09-11T22:18:42.000Z

[quote=“KA101, post:66, topic:2490”]I’m just gonna pop in and suggest that once Galen gets the mod-manager & world-gen stable & released, he or someone else ought to do a brief HOWTO on editing the JSONs.

(Most I’ve ever accomplished was fixing a typo in an item name.)[/quote]
There’s actually the start of one in the code doc folder as MODDING.txt, though I don’t think it is actually included with the non-code packages of the game. If anyone wants to expand on it I’ll be happy to merge a PR on it (or you can send it to me in a pm or something if you can’t put up a PR yourself).

Zireael · 2013-09-12T07:13:41.000Z

There are programs out there that would be much better at editing a JSON file then the Cataclysm options menu (and if someone were to write a nice Cata-JSON GUI-based editor it would be even easier).

Have you seen CataModder?

i2amroy · 2013-09-12T19:20:35.000Z

Zireael:

Have you seen CataModder?

I actually just found that, I don’t tend to look at the lab forum that often.