Option for "Hardcore" Injuries

[Soyweiser]

I never said it had to mirror DF, but isn’t the point of DDA to be challenging?

Not according to the design document: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

I have no problem with challenge, but making stuff unplayable, unfun, or way to realistic (in real life a z apocalypse would not be something fun), so just challenge for challenge sake is pretty bad game design. It works for some games of course.

And sure the hp system could be redesigned. But I have no idea how to do it in a ‘fun’ way. Esp not considering the rest of the systems in place, and the setting.

[Valpo]

Making stuff unplayable is bad ofc whats your point?

The df system isn t unfun or to realistic to me.
You can not desinfect a wound in df which is why its realy bad there. But with modern medicine you can do much more.

[Soyweiser]

[quote=“Valpo, post:7, topic:12174”]Making stuff unplayable is bad ofc whats your point?

The df system isn t unfun or to realistic to me.
You can not desinfect a wound in df which is why its realy bad there. But with modern medicine you can do much more.[/quote]

My points are a) don’t recreate the squad based health system like fortressmode has in cdda b) I have no idea who the current adventure mode does the damage system. How do they fix the ‘your arm is off’ problem?

Ow and C) which I didn’t mention before. Generally time investment is a lot higher in characters in CDDA than adventure mode DF. So introducing stuff that makes the game a lot more deadly makes the game less fun (as now your characters you played a lot are more likely to die, so you have to scavenge/create medical supplies more, and take them with you everywhere, etc).

[Valpo]

Whats “the your arm is off” problem? When you loose an arm its gone in df.
fortress mode and adventuremode dmg model are exactly the same as far as i know.

I may be wierd but i ll say this:

When i first played this game . When i died in the first few days. Or a bit later .
Those where the most fun hours i had with this game.

Adn you should always take some medical suplies with you if you do have them.

[Coolthulhu]

The medical system could use a partial “hardcorizing”, but I’d rather have it be incremental than revolutionary.
For example, currently all statuses are either removed or not. That is, applying a rag to a bleeding wound has 50% chance to remove the bleeding effect.
Instead, I’d see it as a reduction of the effect. So applying disinfectant would lower bite time (removing it if it gets to 0), applying a bandage would weaken bleeding and first aid would weaken infection.

[Necrosia]

[quote=“Necrosia, post:5, topic:12174”]I never said it had to mirror DF, but isn’t the point of DDA to be challenging?

Not according to the design document: http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=5559.0

I have no problem with challenge, but making stuff unplayable, unfun, or way to realistic (in real life a z apocalypse would not be something fun), so just challenge for challenge sake is pretty bad game design. It works for some games of course.

And sure the hp system could be redesigned. But I have no idea how to do it in a ‘fun’ way. Esp not considering the rest of the systems in place, and the setting.[/quote]

I see your point, but this is why I specified it as optional. I’m not suggesting hardcore injuries and treatment be the default, but having the option for them would be completely fine. That’s the point of the Rebalance mods we currently have. There’s the base game with its own standard settings, and options and mods around it to make it either harder or easier.

[Belteshazzar]

I wouldnt want Dwarf Fortress’s level of detail. However, as someone recovering from surgery I gotta say that the addition of a simple ‘deep wound’ type requiring stitches, some level of sanitation and longer term pain management (to simulate some penetrating gunshot wounds, long gashes, being stabbed) might be in line?

I know I’ve gotten a Mad Max or Fist Full of Dollars vibe when a character ends up going long term in a limb splint so there are some interesting considerations from some types of medical needs. A deep wound could easily slow you down for a good week and may put you at risk of a painkiller addiction if you try to power through it.

Granted, most attacks arn’t likely to put at risk from this sort of injury (zed fists and jaws are usually unsuitable for tickling your insides as much as ripping you limb from limb, or pounding you to pulp.)

[WIndburns]

I enjoy playing hardcore and pulling off a save, I’m up for the option of hardcore combat.

No rest for bullets.

[Grandpuh_Ty]

“Snake, press the Start button and go into the Survival Viewer.”

[Slax]

“The bullet pierces your liver! That can’t be good…”

[iceball3]

Soyweiser does have a point. To clarify what he’s saying:
-DF’s medical system works in DF because it’s viable within it’s own gameplay context. As it currently is, the only game mode which sees as much time-investment in a single “run” is fortress mode, and the reason why it is is because your individual dwarves are replaceable, functionally. And if someone goes down in the battlefield or otherwise gets hurt, it’s part of standard gameplay to actually have a medical bay at the ready to recieve them, even if they aren’t quite the same afterwards. Your fortress can functionally recover from someone getting hurt or killed.
-Adventure mode, on the other hand, is a much quicker game mode. Most of the time, retired adventurers in dwarf fortress have a lot less time under their belt, if they hadn’t died, and adventure mode in DF isn’t even a constant bare-knuckled struggle to survive like cataclysm is. In essence: DF adventurers are expendable, because the time you’ve spent on them is not faced with as many hardships, and is usually much shorter.

Also, I’d like to mention that “hardcorizing” the medical system into even the ballpark of dwarf fortress styled is going to be such a gigantic wrench in game balance and code overhauling that I’m willing to gamble that “adding an option”, short of just making it a separate game entirely, is not viable. Coding issues aside, there is also the issue of making sure that every single monster in the game is well balanced for both game-modes. It’d be like maintaining two different games at once in a lot of aspects.

[Valpo]

It should be in the main game. Not just an option.

[PaultheNerd]

I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I’d also like to see some more fun symptoms when you are damaged - since at the moment aside from a reduction in speed/damage you can’t tell how healthy you are without looking at the health bars. If your head is damaged you should have blurred vision and maybe even hallucinations when it’s health is REALLY low. Accuracy should decrease and maybe the odd mention of your head hurting. If your chest is damaged you should cough occasionally - maybe even cough up blood if extremely damaged? I’m fairly sure that arm arm damage not only reduces the damage you deal in melee but also makes it harder to turn wheels on cars, or I’ve noticed it when my arms are damaged. Maybe strength should decrease and heavy weapons can’t be wielded? Leg damage should slow you down but imo activating ‘run’ should remove this penalty unless your legs are REALLY badly damaged, as there’s nothing more annoying than dying because you took a bit of leg damage that stopped you from running away.

Wounds could maybe be a seperate thing, with each wound being either open, bandaged or healing. Not bandaging wounds could increase pain and cause further health loss via blood, while bandaging wounds could halt further pain increase and health loss, but still keep the current penalty for a day or so until they ‘heal’ properly. It seems strange that I can get my character down to the final red bar in all body parts and then be pretty much back to yellow/green condition in a single nights sleep. Maybe the bandages become blood soaked and you can wash them to reuse them if you wish?

I’m all for adding more little things, as I find the fun in this game is from all the little things.

[Coolthulhu]

I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I agree that early combat is a bit limited, but running away is really, really good.
Did you actually run or just tried to walk away?

[iceball3]

[quote=“PaultheNerd, post:18, topic:12174”]I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I agree that early combat is a bit limited, but running away is really, really good.
Did you actually run or just tried to walk away?[/quote]Yeah, by the sound of it, Paul seems to not know what the sprinting system in the game is. Assuming you’re using the newest experimentals (not sure how long ago it was added in), you press the " key to enter sprinting mode, which consumes stamina but flat out doubles your running speed.

[PaultheNerd]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:19, topic:12174”][quote=“PaultheNerd, post:18, topic:12174”]I currently feel that the game has very little actual choice when it comes to engaging in combat, especially in the earlier stages of the game. If you’re unlucky enough to bump into a strong monster it’s probably going to just kill you. Running away often isn’t an option as the stronger monsters tend to be just as fast as you, or you lose most of your speed after getting hit and can’t get away. It’s generally not fun to run into a brute early, and while you could argue that’s ‘part of the game’, it doesn’t make it much fun. It’d be cool if you could target specific body parts when attacking. It’d be cool to be able to desperately swing your makeshift crowbar at the brute’s knees in an attempt to down it and slow it down - so you can run away and live to fight another day.

I agree that early combat is a bit limited, but running away is really, really good.
Did you actually run or just tried to walk away?[/quote]Yeah, by the sound of it, Paul seems to not know what the sprinting system in the game is. Assuming you’re using the newest experimentals (not sure how long ago it was added in), you press the " key to enter sprinting mode, which consumes stamina but flat out doubles your running speed.[/quote]

I know about the sprinting mechanic and it’s certainly helpful. It’d still be cool to target limbs of enemies, even if the enemies are all buffed to compensate for this. I don’t really mind about the whole running thing because it’s still fun, I was just using speedy enemies as an example as to how you could get more of those epic heart pumping ‘moments’, where you JUST survive an encounter by managing to break that Hulk’s leg with a well placed thwack of a crowbar. Managing to JUST survive getting obliterated by some sort of security robot by shooting out it’s camera in a last ditch effort with no other way to escape. Getting surrounded by a couple of NPCs and managing to kick one in the chest so hard they’re out of action for a while, coughing and spluttering - allowing you chance to focus on the other and survive what would otherwise be death in a 2v1.

In regards to ‘running away’, I find that getting punted a few tiles by a brute or a hulk will deal enough damage that my character won’t be able to get away even if he starts sprinting due to the penalties. I appreciate this is largely down to player error - should’ve noticed that hulk/brute earlier and run away from it, and maybe my post was a bit too focused on that specific case - I’d just lost a character by running around a corner straight into a brute who did enough damage that he couldn’t run away even with sprinting enabled. I’m largely arguing for targetted limb damage and more obvious effects of limb damage to players and enemies!

[iceball3]

Well, in terms of optional “called attacks” upon enemies, one that I’d like would be:
-Have the option to deliberately have your weapon ‘stick in’ to an enemy, if possible. (no less likely to stick in than at 0 skill, increased chance of sticking in based on stabbing skill and weapon stats)
-Have weapons stuck into enemies debuff their speed and dex rolls significantly, and have it stack, based on the damage dealt by the sticking-attack and the volume and weight of the weapon.

This would allow an interesting scenario where someone, using stabbing implements, can manage to nearly-immobilize an extremely tough and rather threatening enemy by essentially stapling it’s body with knives, sharpened rebar, pointy sticks, etc.

[Arek_PL]

i think that we do not need “hardcore” medical system but more complex one (less rpg like)
i think that we need something more than one health bar, probaly new menu where we can view our health status and we are just noticed with messages that something changed because ui is already full of stuff, maybe new tab in character menu?

lets say we have a blood stat, bleeding do not damage limbs but blood
but what about other things? lets rename blood stat to health stat, stat what covers blood, internal organs and other conditions
lets say we get poisoned, it damages our internal organs and other thing, in vanilia we just use bandages on our bodyparts

limb lossing? well i do not like this idea, if we plan to do it we should add some unrealistic ability to do something about it, hi-tech bionic limbs, wooden leg, lizard mutagen mutations

[Tawarochir]

Personally, I consider MGS3’s Cure system to be the perfect median between “overly complicated system” and “overly abstracted system” (although, admittedly, pausing every time you got hurt to patch yourself up was kind of irritating in a stealth action game, but it isn’t an issue in a roguelike like this.) So, a quick overview of its inner workings:

Things we already have:

• Stopping bleeding
• Disinfecting wounds
• Splints on broken limbs

Things we do not have:

• Sutures
• Burn ointment
• Antidotes and digestive medicine

Things we should not have:

• Digging out bullets (this is a terrible idea, at least in the field, seeing as they aren’t made out of lead anymore and are therefore mostly harmless I am a moron)
• Perpetually-lit anti-leech cigars

I think that burns being a unique injury and having burn ointment would be a good idea that wouldn’t be too difficult to implement, and stitching wounds using needles and sewing kits would be interesting; I’d suggest that patching yourself up with bandages or a first aid kit while you have a sewing kit or needle and thread in your inventory would offer the option to suture the wound, with a slightly increased risk of screwing up at low first aid levels and a higher health restoration rate to compensate.

Antidotes and digestive medicine could be handy. It’s frustrating having to wait around for ages for nausea to end, and antidotes would be nice when fighting spiders, wasps, and triffids.

[ZoneWizard]

So you like my Suture ideas…how pleasing =)