Nutritional balancing

[Subhazard]

I'm not a fan of it. It punishes players for eating too much of the same food, but it punishes them by meaning they need to eat more of it to not be starving. The "nutrition" stat food has now basically acts as fullness, or a calorie counter. Minecraft gets away with it because its not pretending to be realistic in the slightest, but Cata is somewhat trying. Feels too far off the mark, and introduces a few weird cases of "game logic" that isn't immediately intuitive to a player.

Thanks for taking the time, and I appreciate you laying out your thoughts.

I suppose it comes down to really defining CDDA’s design philosophy. Where’s the verdict on ‘Simulation’ vs ‘Game’ or ‘Realism’ vs ‘Authenticity’

Is it more important that it FEELS like real life, or is it more important that it IS like real life.

I will agree that my solution could be too simple. However, it’s a good baseline and alternative to continue discussion from.

I think, before we keep going, we should figure out where CDDA stands on the above mentioned aspects.

Are we intending to be more simulation than game, or more game than simulation? To what degree?

Are we intending to be realistic (accurately simulating, to the best of our abilities, the mechanics of real life), or authenticity (approximating the mechanics of real life to create the feelings that one should experience)

once we define these things, we can discuss the rest of the game much more easily. Otherwise, this discussion would get incredibly circular, and we won’t get anywhere.

Summary:

Define the design paradigm.

[User_2]

checked outta the argument between you and Chezzo once the insults started flying. But none of you mentioned morale penalties

It's in [url=http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=13234.msg285874#msg285874]this or one of its following posts[/url], you might have missed the link to it. Anyway, in real life the morale penalty is the result of your unhealthy monotonous diet (and evolution) so which one you implement in cataclysm doesn't really matter. It's still based on the same real life effect, unless fall for the fast food fallacy. There could also an immediate morale penalty (or boost) and a long-term (months and years) health effect.

In case you’re still not clicking on the link i keep linking:
There could also be no penalties at all and a morale boost for eating varied food.

[Pthalocy]

User has been temporarily banned for intentional incendiary behaviour, as listed under Here

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, please PM me instead of posting it publicly.

[Profugo_Barbatus]

Quoting from the design document on the lab subforum

Reality-based: At its core, DDA is based in the real world. One that has been changed in extreme ways, but still very much the real world as we know it. The things in the game that exist in the real world should act like their real-world counterparts; things that are extrapolated from real-world things should hold true to the real-world principles involved, and things that do not exist in the real world are free to act in whatever internally consistent way they want. This includes things like population density, item stats, item spawn frequencies. It’s a simulation, so there are of course limits to the verisimilitude, and in fact it’s generally not a very good simulation at all, but the *goal* is to depict reality.

The last line implies to me that we are aiming for something that approximates the experience we would expect in real life, without having to go crazy. More simulation than game, but with an emphasis on gameplay. How far your willing to bend the simulation in favor of gameplay is going to be a personal preference.

The whole document is located at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LhNpXGXmkPOxp_cp0-c9G7xqnihwApq-eZSa99exfcU/edit?pli=1 If you want to check it out. Its a bit old from what I can tell, but it seems to hold true regardless.

[Subhazard]

[quote=“Profugo Barbatus, post:56, topic:12197”]Quoting from the design document on the lab subforum

Reality-based: At its core, DDA is based in the real world. One that has been changed in extreme ways, but still very much the real world as we know it. The things in the game that exist in the real world should act like their real-world counterparts; things that are extrapolated from real-world things should hold true to the real-world principles involved, and things that do not exist in the real world are free to act in whatever internally consistent way they want. This includes things like population density, item stats, item spawn frequencies. It’s a simulation, so there are of course limits to the verisimilitude, and in fact it’s generally not a very good simulation at all, but the *goal* is to depict reality.

The last line implies to me that we are aiming for something that approximates the experience we would expect in real life, without having to go crazy. More simulation than game, but with an emphasis on gameplay. How far your willing to bend the simulation in favor of gameplay is going to be a personal preference.

The whole document is located at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LhNpXGXmkPOxp_cp0-c9G7xqnihwApq-eZSa99exfcU/edit?pli=1 If you want to check it out. Its a bit old from what I can tell, but it seems to hold true regardless.[/quote]

In that case, I think the current design should be kept, and then an additional, simplified option should be available as a mod.

As it comes down to personal preference, having multiple systems available to the player I think would be the best option.

So rather than deciding which system is best, create alternative systems that the player can selection upon world creation.

[Subhazard]

[quote=“Phallacy”]

In that case, I think the current design should be kept, and then an additional, simplified option should be available as a mod.

As it comes down to personal preference, having multiple systems available to the player I think would be the best option.

So rather than deciding which system is best, create alternative systems that the player can selection upon world creation.

Well, the current system would be acceptable if it worked on a realistic timescale and if more calcium sources could be found or veggies had higher calcium.
Two thirds of mankind can’t drink milk and still have alright bones without drinking bone broth all the time.[/quote]

Okay, then let’s just adjust those numbers then.

I don’t see why it needs a discussion.

edited for housekeeping.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=3.0

[Solusphere]

Guys, stop replying to the guy actively evading a mod ban. You’ll only encourage him.

[Subhazard]

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=3.0

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=2.0

[Solusphere]

[quote=“BorkBorkGoesTheCode, post:59, topic:12197”]http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=3.0

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=2.0[/quote]

BorkBork’s post was in response to User’s request via duplicate account for a list of unofficial mods.

[Subhazard]

Oh. Then pardon my snark.

[Edward_Snowden]

[quote=“Subhazard, post:61, topic:12197”][quote=“BorkBorkGoesTheCode, post:59, topic:12197”]http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=3.0

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?board=2.0[/quote]

BorkBork’s post was in response to User’s request via duplicate account for a list of unofficial mods.[/quote]
BorkBork, out of respect for your apparent autism i will refrain from calling you names or reporting your post, but this is clearly not a “list of mods”.
Sure, some threads contain links to mods, but most are just discussions.

[pisskop]

the real issue is nobody willing to work on it. talk is good, but the raws are right there

… well, some of us have tried, at least .

and this is a nechsnic that is more about encouraging self governence. people will eat better because theyare shown a nutritional statline, not because of the relatively minor inconveniences

[Edward_Snowden]

and this is a mechanic that is more about encouraging self governence. people will eat better because theyare shown a nutritional statline, not because of the relatively minor inconveniences

Are you sure?
Or does the current system convince players to live unhealthier by eating statistically harmful multivitamin pills?

Does anyone know where we can scale the system to be more realistic and less FUD and marketing?

[pisskop]

I think you misunderstand me. Im not advocating the use of vitamin pills. Im advocating that somebody go ahead and make the PRs that push this foreward. Stagnanting this will result in it obsolescence.

[Coolthulhu]

Im advocating that somebody go ahead and make the PRs that push this foreward.

“Everyone but me, CHARGE!”

[pisskop]

lol I gave it a try with adding ant meats, and any change with jsons will be done in my own mod, if only to test their suitability.

[Subhazard]

I think you misunderstand me. Im not advocating the use of vitamin pills. Im advocating that somebody go ahead and make the PRs that push this foreward. Stagnanting this will result in it obsolescence.

I also nominate everyone else to do all the work

[Profugo_Barbatus]

If we can agree on an idea to implement, I’m willing to try and do the work. I’ve been looking for a project to try and do for the game, and this might be an interesting one. Certainly one we could due to have, at any rate.

[pisskop]

We need penalties or boons for nutrition. They dont need to be perfect, but they do need to have some effect on the player. They must also have some basis in reality, but a gamey effect to prod the player to explore is fine.

The effects.json page in ./json should have all the vitamin effects and should be currently empty of actual effects.

I see this as a chance to punish turtling with oatmeal. Intdown, Dexdown, some kind of fatigue effect or lethargy. I wish we could json up a permamorale penalty.