# "No Hope" mod v2.6

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971>\
**Category:** The Lab\
**Created:** [October 17, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971 "2020-10-17T17:50:39Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 19\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/21 "2021-02-06T17:17:50Z")

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> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Is there any roadmap of the project to understand in what direction it will develop?

Nope, unfortunately. If only “make the game harder and more fun”, but that’s too vague. In short: most locations should be looted; loot should be scarce; monsters should be dangerous; NPCs should be dangerous. Something like that.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Are there plans to expand the mod on bandits?

Yes, I guess so. I want to add bandits to most locations which player finds attractive - LMOE, military bunkers, and so on. If player considers this locations as priority targets for looting, then bandits most probably will think so too.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Maybe add single looters?

We already have single NPCs wandering around and looting, is that you mean?

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Plan to work with locations and create more versions of “looted” locations?

Yes, definitely. I just need more free time…

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Is it realistic to implement the appearance of sandbags on the roads and other “military” barriers that would prevent vehicles to move?

I guess so. We already have police and military roadblocks, but they only have simple road barricades. I think there’s nothing preventing us from adding a sandbag/earthbag barricades. And I also think this would fit vanilla too, no reason to restrict it to mod only.

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/22 "2021-02-06T19:53:12Z")

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Welcome version 2.5 of the mod!

Changes for versions 2.1 - 2.5:

- Added my old “shrub with a bee hive” furniture which spawns bees.
- Removed all turrets from military vehicles.
- Added partial Russian translation and instructions on how to apply translation.
- Replaced diesel fuel with jp8 as per [CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA#46824](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/46824) and lowered its amount to minimal values.

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 7, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/23 "2021-02-07T17:04:51Z")

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Welcome version 2.6 of the mod!

In this version all LMOE shelters will have a rather high chance to spawn several bandits inside. Also made getting inside the shelter harder as entry door above ground is now locked.

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**Author:** ![Vostok](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/vostok/32/10802_2.png) [@Vostok](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Vostok)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 9:47am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/24 "2021-02-08T09:47:07Z")

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Thanks for the answers!  
There is a problem with NPС - they do not use firearms at a sufficient distance. They (NPCs) try to shorten the distance and approach the player, and if the player has a weapon equal to theirs, then the advantage is on the player’s side.  
Because of this the balance is broken and having, I think, any weapon of caliber 5.56 or 7.62 the player can with impunity (almost) shoot any raiders, collecting from them new cartridges 5.56 (because most of them are armed with M4A1 or M14) and so continue indefinitely.  
And so it turns out that, on the one side - raiders and bandits not bad diversify the game, and at first, especially in the wilderness, they are more likely to be the main danger.  
But on the other side, when you get your first firearm, the raiders become nothing more than a target, and it’s just a question of how successfully the player can keep them at a distance.

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 8, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/25 "2021-02-08T16:16:07Z")

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> [@Vostok](#):
>
> There is a problem with NPС - they do not use firearms at a sufficient distance.

This is a well-known issue, but that’s not the mod’s problem, but rather the game itself - for example, see [NPCs do not consistently use their ranged weapons · Issue #38609 · CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA · GitHub](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/issues/38609).

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**Author:** ![Vostok](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/vostok/32/10802_2.png) [@Vostok](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Vostok)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 10:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/26 "2021-02-12T10:20:55Z")

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Hey hey! Another comment from TG community!

1. The description of the mod states that the zombie revival is cut from the mod, as there are problems with it.  
What are the problems associated with it?  
The zombie revival mechanic was annoying for some players, but on the other hand very fun.  
Moreover - before the increase in the number of bullets in turrets, this mechanic was associated with one of the tactics of escape from the laboratory (throwing dead bodies in the turret).  
Well, and other nice things, like forgotten corpses that get up and give the player trouble.
2. Yes, looters and bandits are fun, but for the experienced player at the start of the game are just bags of useful items, and the opportunity to get a very good outfit at the start of the game (up to automatic firearms)  
If the mod aims to bring back cut mechanics from the game, here are a few questions
3. Turrets on a vehicle.Why? Because they used to be convenient sources of ammo, and they looked right in the game world.

4.1 Will drugs be restored to their former glory? Like Improved characteristics when using drugs.  
4.2 Fungus infection is not at all interesting at this time. Will the possibility of losing your hands come back?  
4.3 The zombie scientists had the ability to open doors and throw acid vials and manhacks cut out. That used to be pretty fun! Passing the lab was more difficult

1. If the mod becomes a fork - does that mean that it will develop in its own way, and CDDA mods will not be compatible with it? (Secronom, BL9)

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/27 "2021-02-12T15:20:25Z")

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> [@Vostok](#):
>
> What are the problems associated with it?

There are several monsters in the game whose armor value is stated to be derived from the monster’s armor. Zombie soldier is an example of such monsters (but actually this applies to any humanoid zombie in the game, as they all wear some sort of clothing/armor). If you kill zombie soldier and loot its bulletproof vest, its armor value should be equal only to its natural armor (i.e. skin), but at the moment there is no such mechanics in the game, and resurrected zombie soldier, while naked, still has armor value as if it still has its vest.

But even if there were no problems with this mechanics, I’m the one that finds it annoying and adding nothing to gameplay. I find “throwing-corpses-to-turrets” stuff more like of exploit rather than of valid tactics, and it’s definitely not the reason to bring it in my mod.

Fortunately it’s easy to turn the reviving back on for those who want it.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Yes, looters and bandits are fun, but for the experienced player at the start of the game are just bags of useful items, and the opportunity to get a very good outfit at the start of the game (up to automatic firearms)

The truth is literally nothing is a threat to an experienced player, even in early-game. Thus we can’t take experienced players as a reference point when balancing things. If we artificially increase difficulty of game in an effort of making game harder to experienced players, we will make the game literally unplayable for casual or inexperienced players. Some time ago I made an answer in post on similar matter: [Cataclysm's Current Level of Difficulty - #8 by Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-current-level-of-difficulty/22806/8)

We (the devs) are constantly trying to improve an AI of NPCs. Hopefully one day they will learn to use at least some of the tricks that players use.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> Turrets on a vehicle.Why? Because they used to be convenient sources of ammo, and they looked right in the game world.

1. Intact turrets on vehicles in post-apocalypse is grossly unrealistic. Even if soldiers run out of ammo, when they abandon the vehicle, they would definitely take the weapon out of mount and take it with them. If it was a bandits’ ambush, where are the traces of battle? And why bandits wouldn’t take weapon and ammo as winners? If soldiers were killed by some nether creature that doesn’t need the weapon, someone else would definitely steal it sooner or later, especially after so much time passed after the riots began.
2. Specifically because it’s so convenient source of weapons and ammo, and because it’s essentially a free loot with no guards or other threats, it’s utterly unbalanced. Can you imagine finding something like _Flaming Sword of Destruction +3_ (equivalent of finding a M60 with several full ammo belts in a Hummer) lying literally on the ground in _Skyrim_ or any other RPG?

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> 4.1 Will drugs be restored to their former glory? Like Improved characteristics when using drugs.

I don’t know. I _never ever_ used drugs in the game, and I can’t say what were their effects before the nerf.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> 4.2 Fungus infection is not at all interesting at this time. Will the possibility of losing your hands come back?

You must’ve confused my mod with the Bright Nights fork. I haven’t touched anything related to fungus in my mod.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> 4.3 The zombie scientists had the ability to open doors and throw acid vials and manhacks cut out. That used to be pretty fun! Passing the lab was more difficult

It was all hardcoded, and I’m not sure if it’s possible to return with json-only modding. Most likely not.

> [@Vostok](#):
>
> If the mod becomes a fork - does that mean that it will develop in its own way, and CDDA mods will not be compatible with it? (Secronom, BL9)

I highly doubt I will someday dare to convert the mod into a fork. There are several reasons for this, and I don’t want to talk about it right now. I’m more inclined to include my mod to a set of mods shipped with the game. I think I will do this as soon as 0.F. comes out.

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**Author:** ![anothersimulacrum](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/anothersimulacrum/32/10770_2.png) [@anothersimulacrum](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/anothersimulacrum)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/28 "2021-02-12T15:44:02Z")

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> [@Valiant](#):
>
> > [@Vostok](#):
> >
> > 4.3 The zombie scientists had the ability to open doors and throw acid vials and manhacks cut out. That used to be pretty fun! Passing the lab was more difficult
> 
> It was all hardcoded, and I’m not sure if it’s possible to return with json-only modding. Most likely not.

I believe it was just a monster attack, which is still around on one of the lab robots and should be trivial to apply back to the scientist. Opening doors past that is just a flag.

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**Author:** ![Invalid\_Username](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/4bbf92/32.png) [@Invalid\_Username](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Invalid_Username)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/29 "2021-02-12T15:58:38Z")

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> [@Valiant](#):
>
> Even if soldiers run out of ammo, when they abandon the vehicle, they would definitely take the weapon out of mount and take it with them.

Not necessarily. In perfect circumstances, yes, abandoning ordnance and materiel is retarded, but considering that a lot of the situations leading to the abandonment of these vehicles would be things like getting overrun by a horde of zombies, nobody in their right mind would want to try dismounting a Ma Deuce and lugging 100 lbs of useless metal around with them when they’re running for their lives. Solid points on the bandits, though, but if they don’t have the capability to manufacture more ammo or knowledge on a location to scavenge more, why would they waste their time taking what is, again, just a bunch of extra weight?

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [February 12, 2021, 5:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/30 "2021-02-12T17:23:24Z")

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With riots happening for at least 9 months, any ownerless stuff most likely would be taken by someone quirky. The chance for intact turret to stay on vehicle for this much time I personally find minuscule.

From technical side of view, we don’t have possibility to define a chance for vehicle part to spawn. So I can’t set, let’s say, 10% chance to spawn for M60 turret on Humvees. Yes, I can create almost identical vehicle with no turrets and make it spawn 10 times rarer than vehicle with turrets, but I find it’s more hassle than it’s worth.

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**Author:** ![discountmusketeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@discountmusketeer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/discountmusketeer)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 2:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/31 "2021-11-17T14:46:54Z")

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Question: is there any way I can exclude Labs from the mod?  
Context: I’d love to do a bombed-out mega city run starting with a Lab escape. The problem is that Lab escape runs—especially the Broken Cyborg, my preference—are already kind of a crapshoot, and with a .1 spawn rate and no guaranteed spawns it seems likely to be undoable.

Considering the fortification of the labs it would make some sense for them to have survived this far. How complex would an edit of this sort be?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/32 "2021-11-17T17:41:49Z")

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> [@discountmusketeer](#):
>
> Question: is there any way I can exclude Labs from the mod?

Yes, of course. Like any other overmap special, labs can be removed from the list of locations to spawn.

> [@discountmusketeer](#):
>
> How complex would an edit of this sort be?

Rather easy. You just need to add a file with code like this:

```auto
{
    "type": "overmap_special",
    "id": "Lab",
    "overmaps": [],
    "occurrences": [0, 0]
  },

```

This will prevent all specials with id `Lab` from spawning. Add any other ids with “lab”, and you’re good.

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**Author:** ![discountmusketeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@discountmusketeer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/discountmusketeer)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/33 "2021-11-17T19:45:27Z")

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Thank you for the response! I worded my question badly, my bad. What I meant was “can I play with No Hope, but Science Labs have normal loot”? As in, all other parts of the world are dilapidated, but if you can break into a lab, you’ll be rewarded with loot.

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**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2021, 6:28am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/34 "2021-11-19T06:28:18Z")

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> [@discountmusketeer](#):
>
> can I play with No Hope, but Science Labs have normal loot

By “normal” you meant significantly lowered, just like in most houses in the mod?

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**Author:** ![Paragonid](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paragonid/32/11670_2.png) [@Paragonid](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paragonid)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/35 "2021-11-26T02:19:52Z")

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> [@Valiant](#):
>
> Intact turrets on vehicles in post-apocalypse is grossly unrealistic. Even if soldiers run out of ammo, when they abandon the vehicle, they would definitely take the weapon out of mount and take it with them. If it was a bandits’ ambush, where are the traces of battle? And why bandits wouldn’t take weapon and ammo as winners? If soldiers were killed by some nether creature that doesn’t need the weapon, someone else would definitely steal it sooner or later, especially after so much time passed after the riots began.

Evacuation of USA from Afghanistan with all the weapons/vehicles left is a good example of how realistic it is…  
In the same time I am not opposing it as a solution to game balance.  
The bigger problem than realism, is inconsistency. I find a lot of small guns in military vehicles

> [@Valiant](#):
>
> Fortunately it’s easy to turn the reviving back on for those who want it.

Can you please tell me how? I have no idea

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 4:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/36 "2021-11-26T04:20:55Z")

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> [@Paragonid](#):
>
> Evacuation of USA from Afghanistan with all the weapons/vehicles left is a good example of how realistic it is

How long, do you think, these weapons and vehicles were lying “ownerless” after the evacuation?

> I find a lot of small guns in military vehicles

This could and should be fixed, when I have time.

> Can you please tell me how? I have no idea

In `modinfo.json` of the mod find `"flag": { "name": "REVIVES", "value": false }` and change `false` to `true`.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paragonid](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paragonid/32/11670_2.png) [@Paragonid](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paragonid)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/37 "2021-11-26T13:49:32Z")

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> [@Valiant](#):
>
> How long, do you think, these weapons and vehicles were lying “ownerless” after the evacuation?

Good question, I asked it myself several times. I’m a new player to CDDA in general, and don’t have full experience with the rest of the areas, but can judge by the towns. Considering there is fresh milk everywhere, including outside of fridges, most of vehicle crashes, home innovations, looting must have happened last 1-3 days. It’s confirmed by some events happening in time, like military roadblocks collecting zombies just in front of your eyes and swarmed turrets still having ammo (not much in No Hope though, like 1?). There are dead-spawned in some buildings, who didn’t turn yet, which means they died less than 24 hours ago too.  
Therefore vanilla case of most vehicles still being mostly intact feels more believable than your concept. But for balance reasons, I prefer yours. Maybe another way to come to a decent balance is to make many many more times less crashed vehicles on the streets, and vehicles in general

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Valiant](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valiant/32/4788_2.png) [@Valiant](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valiant)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/38 "2021-11-26T16:09:56Z")

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> Considering there is fresh milk everywhere, including outside of fridges, most of vehicle crashes, home innovations, looting must have happened last 1-3 days.

In my view of lore civil disorder started many months before the date of game start. I prefer to think it was about 9 months of riots, disorder, and marauding. And if there’s intact stashes of loot somewhere, that’s simply because I didn’t manually tweaked its spawn. Sometime in the future I’ll check all locations for spawn ratios, but for now I simply don’t have enough time and willingness for it.

And you didn’t answered my question. Just in case, I clarify that I meant US army evacuation from Afghanistan, not ingame evacuation of population.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paragonid](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paragonid/32/11670_2.png) [@Paragonid](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paragonid)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2021, 4:50pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/no-hope-mod-v2-6/24971/39 "2021-11-26T16:50:26Z")

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Misunderstood your question. It probably depends on many factors, some which are obvious known military bases or vehicles in the open, are probably targeted immediately in a day or two.  
But I don’t think it’s a fair comparison to CDDA. Unlike in CDDA, Afghanistan is looted by heavily organized crowds, which don’t have to deal with danger of life every second of moving or looting. They control the area and have no resistance.  
Number of participants, organization level, preparation factor, danger level, logistics factor, concentration/decentralization of the looting targets are too different for direct comparison.

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