New repair discussion

[TheKobold]

It might be easier to make an argument when we know the actual numbers. I dont under stand code so i cant go in and look there to see how its handeled, can you spell out how the numbers and randomization that goes into it for a layman, maybe then we can give you something less vague than
"This doesnt feel right"

[Zireael]

The most telling thing is to sort out reasonable exchange rates for thread <-> string <-> rope (which I doubt are at all reasonable now), and figure out how many charges a typical found spool of thread should have (which I agree is probably absurdly low right now). With that we can sort out how much thread represents a charge, and from there determine how much it should cost to do repairs.

I was looking at it from a gameplay point of view. If “thread” were named “spool of thread” and a spool having, say, 20 charges, then we could talk about making it “reasonable” or “realistic”.

[Rokmonkey]

The thing is, the massive thread usages don’t even make tailoring CHALLENGING. You invest time and thread, and you inevitably reach a point where you have enough resources to handle the cost of thread. It renders tailoring unfeasible for newer players while doing little to hinder veteran survivors in full S.T.A.L.K.E.R. gear.

That’s it right there. When starting a new character, getting enough thread to reinforce or repair clothing is a pain, but 4 days in I’ve got 1000’s of charges of thread so no problem, mostly because I can hack out seat belts to disassemble into thread.

I think as far as thread usage is concerned it would require some large re-balance across everything thread related. Right now, if I just change my normal game play progression from NOT doing tailoring on day 1 and instead pursuing other tasks I don’t notice it. It’s a mild annoyance to have to disassemble ropes, strings or rags to get thread that’s all. Given enough time for players to get used to the thread usage, gameplay styles will change and it won’t matter.

At 4 tailoring I can make a leather duster or a backpack, but when trying to reinforce some seams on my boxers I end up destroying it, that is quite irksome. A mechanism to prevent damaging beyond repair, or damaging period would be good. Dependent on the difficulty of crafting the item and the player skill. To have a good chance, let’s say 70% to NOT damage a t-shirt when trying to reinforce/fit/repair you need a tailor skill of 2, but when you get to 3 or 4 it’s 99%. You may not succeed but you will never damage it further on your own.

[pisskop]

Its literally smashing windows.

(s)mash at a window. pick up the string.

Getting sheets is harder due to their bulk and the 2clothing rule. But not by all that much w/a car nearby

Its a time investment, and afa that goes its a low one. I hear people merry post about making 50 canvas bags with no complaints, but thread is stymying you? Its a time and food cost. booze too if youre me.

maybe a spool of thread could be an item we can loot?

[TheKobold]

Sewing, is such a simple and basic task, i dont see how any one with any skill could destroy a piece of clothing unless they where completely unskilled, it was almost destroyed already, or they where trying to refit it. It also doesn’t make sense that it takes a dozen+ attempts to fix a simple rip and in the process ripping it three times and making it a longer process. Sewing is seriously child’s play, it shouldn’t be extended into this long tedious battle to keep the item that was ripped from disintegration in your hands just by pushing a needle and some thread through it. It isn’t realistic that it takes dozens of tries to fix a rip and in the process tear it more.

I can see taking a amateur(lvl1-3) 4-6 attempts to fix a rip. But i can only imagine they might waste extra thread and never harm the object more.
I can see refitting as having a potential to destroy an item because you are ripping out the seams even for some one with skill and quite a chance if they are realtively unskilled. Maybe some wasted wasted thread.
I can see making something sturdy being out of the range of low skill seamsters but hardly would it have a chance to shred the items. It could waste alot of thread.

It seems like some one thats never touched a needle and tread designed this system.
Sewing isnt hard its tedious and takes a while, it rarely has waste as if you mess up you just unthread the seam you just made.

What happens to me now is even with moderate skill of 3-4 it takes dozens of attempts to sew up a rip and i risk losing the item because some how my tiny needle is shredding it instead of sewing up the little rip.

I dont think there should be a damage chance unless you have no skill in sewing, its almost destroyed (1-2 pips), its being refitted by some one with low skill, or being made sturdy by some one with low skill.

Why? because sewing is mind blowingly simple unless you want to make things pretty. The difficulties of sewing comes into it when you are trying to keep seams hidden or nice looking.

[Chezzo]

I love the new repair menu, it is so much less grindy. Thank you to whoever fixed it.

I can absolutely see it taking that much thread. Repairing stuff takes thread, and more thread than it was taking.

While the above poster was correct, a spool of thread has 100 yards, I think a generic pocket sewing kit would have only five yards or so.

[Random_dragon]

[quote=“TheKobold, post:90, topic:11181”]It seems like some one thats never touched a needle and tread designed this system.
Sewing isnt hard its tedious and takes a while, it rarely has waste as if you mess up you just unthread the seam you just made.

What happens to me now is even with moderate skill of 3-4 it takes dozens of attempts to sew up a rip and i risk losing the item because some how my tiny needle is shredding it instead of sewing up the little rip.[/quote]

This, in a goddamn nutshell. If this is supposed to be realistic, it fails in that regard. If its purpose is gameplay balance, it’s proven controversial as to whether it really made things any better.

So it fails on one side and gets half credit on the other. :V

[TheKobold]

The new menu is great, the new grindier mechanics behind it not so much, I used up 74 units of thread at lvl 4 sewing to make an already fitted and fully repaired jacket sturdy, it ripped 8 or so times twice down two ticks, and took waaaaaay to many tries. Seems kinda unrealistic for some one with decent sewing skill. Especially some one who has basic skills in sewing in real life too.

[Random_dragon]

Yeah. I mean, even I can’t fuck up a basic repair of a rip that badly.

[Coolthulhu]

So no damage on most repairs.
Except when “rescuing” items from 3-4 damage.

But then how should material (rag/leather) consumption be realized? Clothing gets ripped and not just at the seams.
Random chance to consume rags on failure? Random chance to consume it on success (scaling down with skill)?

As for reinforcing: I’d like to make reinforcing something that can’t be taken for granted. I’d add a strict requirement “you need x skill to reinforce this” with “x” being dependent on something with the item, like the recipe used to craft it (10 if uncraftable?).

If someone could provide at least 3 examples in the form of:
[dexterity - tailoring - expected thread consumption - expected rag consumption]
It would all be easier to balance

[Random_dragon]

Maybe.

Also, in the case of hazmat suits and other things, it might make sense for a failed attempt reducing its FUNCTIONALITY, but not destroying it outright. But this would be a bit odd to implement.

[TheKobold]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:95, topic:11181”]So no damage on most repairs.
Except when “rescuing” items from 3-4 damage.

But then how should material (rag/leather) consumption be realized? Clothing gets ripped and not just at the seams.
Random chance to consume rags on failure? Random chance to consume it on success (scaling down with skill)?

As for reinforcing: I’d like to make reinforcing something that can’t be taken for granted. I’d add a strict requirement “you need x skill to reinforce this” with “x” being dependent on something with the item, like the recipe used to craft it (10 if uncraftable?).

If someone could provide at least 3 examples in the form of:
[dexterity - tailoring - expected thread consumption - expected rag consumption]
It would all be easier to balance[/quote]

These sound like reasonable solutions. For material consumption maybe a lvl 2 rip and higher uses a patch/rag since it likely to be a hole and not just a torn seam or rip. The random chance is good to throw in there too.

I was thinking a straight skill requirment for stuff like refitting and reinforcing but i like the ideal of attaching it to the lvl requirment for making it.
Maybe something like:

Refitting = crafting lvl requirment -2
reinforcing = crafting lvl requirment -1

Still leaves the issue of number of attempts. Maybe im missing some insight into the mechanics but it seems after i hit lvl 4 some things just get fixed fitted and reinforced easily but some takes forever. Maybe its rng.

[Coolthulhu]

For material consumption maybe a lvl 2 rip and higher uses a patch/rag since it likely to be a hole and not just a torn seam or rip.

I’d rather avoid tying it closely to damage.
It’s not very realistic that items can only ever get holes after being torn first.
Due to the way damage system works, damage can “advance” only by one level at a time. Unless we want to change that, it would be a good idea to make lvl 1 damage consume resources too.

[TheKobold]

[quote=“Coolthulhu, post:98, topic:11181”][/quote]
I’d rather avoid tying it closely to damage.
It’s not very realistic that items can only ever get holes after being torn first.
Due to the way damage system works, damage can “advance” only by one level at a time. Unless we want to change that, it would be a good idea to make lvl 1 damage consume resources too.
[/quote]

Sounds reasonable.

[pingpong]

I have a suggestion on the keys aspect, which would be a little more work: Add the option for keys to bind to menu options, preferably fixed (NOT numerical based on what’s available. instead of a->inventory arrow/key ->another inventory arrow/key->menu option like I’m some sort of spider, I could do a-item-item-menu option.

An example would be a (activate) -> B (item) -> h (item being acted on) -> q (menu option one). Similarly, I’d prefer to be able to choose, but not trigger, menu options that I can’t do for stuff like that, so I can move fixed distances. If I wanted to reinforce, I could always move down, say, once, if repair is the first option or whatever. “Repair until” could be a separate submenu if something gets too cluttered by the number of options.

I know not everyone has the same keyboard, but the default QWERTY layout could do qazwsx for six menu choices, all where my hand would be anyway. Add "Activate Menu Option"s keys to the keybinds and someone can customize.

[Labtop_215]

I personally don’t like the idea of an artificial “you don’t destroy/damage clothing when you repair it anymore” because it doesn’t make sense if the clothing you are repairing is really badly damaged, or if you are really stressed. You are dealing with the phreaking post apocalypse. Otherworldly nightmares could tear down the wall your hiding behind at any moment.

That’s something that will probably always be in the back of the mind of any survivor really.

Unless we want to say that positive moral may give a slight (read SMALL) boost in your chances of success, I don’t think it’s unreasonable that you will use more thread than necessary or that you might destroy a piece of armor that you where trying to re-enforce.

It adds tension, and encourages you to keep spares, or backups of your favorite equipment if you aren’t a nomad.

[bitcoinbastard]

Maybe we could introduce weighting into the success/failure equation. A piece of clothing’s quality tends toward a certain level, and moving the quality away from that level requires increasingly extreme RNG rolls? Add in some modifiers for tailor skill and clothing difficulty level, and it could fix some of the complaints about a relatively high level tailor destroying a mundane piece of clothing.

Example: Lets say clothing tends toward arbitrary quality level 5. You as an average level tailor begin working to reinforce an average difficulty piece of clothing with your average focus and average intelligence. (Magic handwaving of numbers for non-average values.) If you’re reinforcing/repairing a quality level 6 piece of clothing, you’ve got an RNG bias toward damaging it back down to level 5, but not too bad so you repaired it up to level 7. Trying to reinforce it again at level 7 makes the RNG bias toward damage that much greater, etc etc.

E: It’s IRL realistic too. If I’ve got a backpack with one of the straps half torn off, I’m reasonably sure I could try and reattach the strap and barring a low dice roll extreme brain fart, I wouldn’t make the backpack any worse than it already is, and the only thing I know about sewing is that you put the thread through the eye of the needle.

Likewise if I was to be handed a brand new piece of clothing and told to improve on it, chances are I’d just make it worse.

[ZoneWizard]

[quote=“Etherdreamer, post:6, topic:11181”]I don´t see the new repair system as bad, in fact I really love it how is right now, and is quick and simple and I dunno how easy was before because just being to play and the forums get the thread " Tailor skill gimped wtf".

Maybe I was a bit annoyed about how encumbrance give a simple fur patch from 0 to 15+ was like “wat” But right now seems you guys balance that and is just improving.

Also I am ok to have a chair and a table for working, an appropriate surface for work is like the real life, right?
Maybe you can fix a bit speeding the process if you are in a adequate condition like the table/chair situation / good light etc.

Nothing about making my stats/skills drop lower when I’m a high level tailor should make sense to have something that fits me as an improvement, go from 0 to 15 for one improvement. The item being worked on becomes neither fitting nor improved.

If anyone wants to know more, just read my tailoring nerfed thread. In short, not enough differentiating results when tailoring. 2 kinds of leather and small improvements. Whats the difference? Makes you either a tank or quick and nimble with some protection. Some people want one or the other…assuming you don’t go flatout naked.

[deoxy]

So, I’ve been running a single long-running survivor, and I generally start over and update at the same time, so I’m a little late to the party…

Anyway, now that I’ve tried it out, on the whole, I like it. Yes, it takes more thread, but before it took almost NO effort to have WAY too much thread so you never had to worry about it ever.

I have only 2 complaints:

• I can’t load up sinew/plant fiber/thread at the same time. They are functionally identical, so keeping them separate seems a little silly and annoying.

• skill level doesn’t seem to make NEARLY enough difference on success rates

Seriously, I’m at level 6 tailoring, and I can barely tell that I’m any better than I was at level 1. Skill books only go up to 8 on tailoring, so I’m pretty darn good, really - I should be able to tell the difference. Yes, still being able to fail is OK, and taking several attempts (and thus more thread) is also OK, and making reinforcing in particular pretty hard to do is OK with me, but the difference between low skill and high skill is currently negligible (as best I can tell). That’s bad.

[Coolthulhu]

[quote=“deoxy, post:104, topic:11181”]- skill level doesn’t seem to make NEARLY enough difference on success rates

Seriously, I’m at level 6 tailoring, and I can barely tell that I’m any better than I was at level 1.[/quote]

The chances are:
(5 + skill - difficulty)% for repair
(5 - (dexterity - tool quality) / 5)% for damage
Oops, that tool quality seems to have wrong sign - it actually makes repairs harder now

Difficulty is equal to item’s damage (1 for scratched, 4 for almost destroyed) or 4 if the item isn’t damaged and is being refitted/reinforced.