# Mutation Idea: Unusually Large/Small

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [August 9, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294 "2015-08-09T08:25:19Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 18\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Chaz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/chaz/32/3870_2.png) [@Chaz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Chaz)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/1 "2015-08-09T08:25:19Z")

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I’m just tapping this idea out real quick on a tablet, but I figured it’d be cool to allow for some size mutations, that come with a variety of advantages and disadvantages. Nothing overly huge or small, but here’s the basic idea:

Unusually Small has the character standing at about 3-4 feet tall (like ChazMoth!). This has some advantages in that they’re harder to hit, can hide better, and are maybe more agile, but they have less overall health (not quite Flimsy/Frail/Fragile levels of health reduction but still noticeable), can’t hit as hard, tire out more easily, I’d need to sorta figure out what would work in general.

Unusually Large characters tower above others at about 7-8 feet. They can hit harder, move faster, and could gain a bonus to intimidation, but they’re bigger targets, can’t hide as well, and might get some movement penalties when doing stuff like climbing through windows (heck, they even have to duck to get through most standard doors!)

As I said, this is just the rough basis for a mutation idea, I’d like advantages and disadvantages to sorta balance out, but for the most part I was amused at the prospect of actually having ChazMoth be a small dude.

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**Author:** ![Onisuzume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cdc98d/32.png) [@Onisuzume](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Onisuzume)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 10:18am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/2 "2015-08-09T10:18:51Z")

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Well, there’s already the (inconveniently) large mutation line in the ursine/cattle paths.  
Along with the subterranean build in the troglodyte path.  
Those sort-of cover what you’re suggesting, afaik.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 2:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/3 "2015-08-09T14:53:23Z")

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Interesting. Thing is that the large and huge mutations, far as I know, only add strength boosts and hinder being in vehicles.

Expanding on both the effects AND adding size categories would be interesting.

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**Author:** ![Muaddib](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/muaddib/32/392_2.png) [@Muaddib](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Muaddib)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/4 "2015-08-10T13:29:15Z")

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I don’t see how being really small makes you more agile. You’re smaller, so your legs will carry you less far. You might move faster than some bigger mutant, but now your short lil’ stubby legs are so tiny you can’t dodge away from that grenade/rocket/whatever.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/5 "2015-08-10T15:08:41Z")

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> [@Muaddib](#):
>
> I don’t see how being really small makes you more agile. You’re smaller, so your legs will carry you less far. You might move faster than some bigger mutant, but now your short lil’ stubby legs are so tiny you can’t dodge away from that grenade/rocket/whatever.

It would make it you a smaller target, so it might be a tradoff in terms of your dodge versus opponent’s accuracy.

A debuff to enemy ranged attacks might fit this, because you actually can’t dodge gunfire last I checked.

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**Author:** ![Coolthulhu](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/coolthulhu/32/2446_2.png) [@Coolthulhu](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Coolthulhu)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/6 "2015-08-10T15:40:04Z")

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> [@Muaddib](#):
>
> I don’t see how being really small makes you more agile. You’re smaller, so your legs will carry you less far. You might move faster than some bigger mutant, but now your short lil’ stubby legs are so tiny you can’t dodge away from that grenade/rocket/whatever.

Against AoE, being smaller helps by providing a smaller area, though this probably wouldn’t help as much as being bigger and just wearing a thicker armor. Still, even being giant won’t help you get away from a rocket, at best run away from a ticking grenade.

Against regular melee and ranged the advantages are obvious. Smaller target is one thing, but also better acceleration/deceleration due to lower inertia and better strength-to-mass ratio.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/7 "2015-08-10T15:47:59Z")

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Exactly. The tradeoff is you’re probably going to get utterly stomped (literally) if you rely on that to fight a larger enemy for too long, as they’d have the advantage in strength and general ability to manhandle you.

Now that I think about it, don’t the checks for escaping a grab attack look for traits and such for slipping out of a grab, in addition to raw strength? Being a small slippery critter would logically hinder being grabbed, but make it harder to brute-force your way out of one.

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**Author:** ![Onisuzume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cdc98d/32.png) [@Onisuzume](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Onisuzume)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/8 "2015-08-10T16:22:18Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> A debuff to enemy ranged attacks might fit this, because you actually can’t dodge gunfire last I checked.

Well, you might try with 9×39mm at longer distances, but even that would be stretching realism, since at about 300m distance you’d have about one second before impact, the bullet travels slightly slower than sound, so assuming you’d be capable of hearing the gunshot (unlikely since, afaik, all 9×39mm guns have integrated suppressors, and the subsonic velocity means lower shot/sound volume as well), you’d still be reduced to having only a fraction of a second to react to it.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/9 "2015-08-10T16:26:52Z")

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Exactly. In game mechanic terms it should really be a DEBUFF to the shooter’s to-hit roll, not a buff to a smaller target’s evasion.

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**Author:** ![Valpo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valpo/32/341_2.png) [@Valpo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valpo)\
**Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/10 "2015-08-10T20:46:31Z")

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Has anyone even been working on mutations at all lately?

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**Author:** ![i2amroy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/i2amroy/32/909_2.png) [@i2amroy](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/i2amroy)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/11 "2015-08-11T04:48:11Z")

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> [@Valpo](#):
>
> Has anyone even been working on mutations at all lately?

Like creating new ones? Not that I know of. I’ve taken a couple of shots at trying to move some more of the mutation stuff into the JSON (which is why basic stat change effects are in there), as well as clean up some of the code recently, but I got sidetracked and the work I did do kept gaining in size until it collapsed under it’s own weight. Its one of the things on my list to take another (hopefully more organized) shot at accomplishing once I finish the lore writeup (which was temporarily delayed by the DCI World Championships and then coming home and finding that it was time to put my cat down. 😢 ).

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/12 "2015-08-11T04:51:44Z")

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Warmth and other properties common to several mutations would be nice to JSONize, yeah. Still, understandable.

And sorry to hear that about your cat. D:

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**Author:** ![Hotel\_16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ce73a5/32.png) [@Hotel\_16](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Hotel_16)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 4:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/13 "2015-08-11T04:57:24Z")

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I love this idea, also in regards as to whether or not a smaller person is more agile then a big person i think with the same muscle and flexibility a smaller person would be able to accomplish the “dodge” faster as they don’t have the bulk to move. I think if there were a “smaller” mutation increasing Dex would be the sensible choice perhaps instead of getting steadily smaller like it’s opposite you should get more compact/efficient.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/14 "2015-08-11T05:07:56Z")

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Dex seems like one option, yeah. I suppose, since the large/huge traits boost strength too?

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**Author:** ![Kryxx](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kryxx/32/438_2.png) [@Kryxx](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kryxx)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/15 "2015-08-12T15:00:34Z")

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> [@Onisuzume](#):
>
> [quote=“Random\_dragon, post:5, topic:10294”]A debuff to enemy ranged attacks might fit this, because you actually can’t dodge gunfire last I checked.

Well, you might try with 9×39mm at longer distances, but even that would be stretching realism, since at about 300m distance you’d have about one second before impact, the bullet travels slightly slower than sound, so assuming you’d be capable of hearing the gunshot (unlikely since, afaik, all 9×39mm guns have integrated suppressors, and the subsonic velocity means lower shot/sound volume as well), you’d still be reduced to having only a fraction of a second to react to it.[/quote]

You would have a better chance of reacting to the muzzle flash than to the sound. By the time you heard the sound you’d be feeling the impact as it exiting/shredded your body. But that’s even than a tiny margin, if you were looking in the correct direction.

Being smaller means your balance for muscle mass is better. Large muscles are not as flexible. Look at gymnasts.

It is not just about the the ‘bar’ routines. Lower Center of mass against gravity.

Other reasons why smaller have higher reactions in general with the same training. The body has a shorter neural network.  
A better rotational capability, and faster limb acceleration as it has to move in a smaller distance.

better power to mass ratio.  
Overall better agility do the the above things  
Lesser chance of heat exhaustion  
Higher endurance

Larger people get higher speed (longer/larger muscles etc. Agility is not speed)  
Longer Reach  
Higher raw strength  
Lower heart rate, and less likely to be less dehydrated as the body can store more water.  
More power

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**Author:** ![Onisuzume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cdc98d/32.png) [@Onisuzume](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Onisuzume)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/16 "2015-08-12T17:35:52Z")

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> You would have a better chance of reacting to the muzzle flash than to the sound.

I'm sorry, but [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAJdkSCyrYs]what muzzle flash[/url] are you talking about? And like I said, hearing this gun is also pretty darn hard.

(Sorry for derailing the thread. :D)

Also, shorter people are more resistant to G forces, not that its very relevant to this game, although some people seem to enjoy making vehicles that go at crazy speeds.

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**Author:** ![Chaz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/chaz/32/3870_2.png) [@Chaz](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Chaz)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/17 "2015-08-12T18:19:48Z")

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I’m glad to see this being discussed in better detail! 😃 However things work, whether they end up being advantageous or disadvantageous, I just really like the idea of being able to play a small mothman, haha. In the Skybreaker storyline ChazMoth is a little over 4 feet tall (Something like 4’3") so having the option to deal with whatever challenges being small throws at me sounds like a fun challenge!

I know little to nothing about the science behind being a small, though. Just that it’d be interesting and potentially dangerous to me, haha.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [August 12, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-idea-unusually-large-small/10294/18 "2015-08-12T18:21:40Z")

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Much like with the large and huge traits, it should be a simple matter of making it a mixed trait. Now the thing is…how do we go about adding such a thing.