# Mutation category expansion: experimenting on NPCs derail
**URL:** https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641
**Category:** The Drawing Board
**Created:** [January 15, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641 "2015-01-15T19:09:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Stretop](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stretop)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/1 "2015-01-15T19:09:50Z")
> [@Mutation category expansion](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion/3755/481):
>
> Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.
I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?
> [@Mutation category expansion](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion/3755/482):
>
> Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.
Via implanted CBMs.
---
### Author:  [@Closet\_Pankin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Closet_Pankin)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/2 "2015-01-15T19:13:13Z")
> [@Stretop](#):
>
> [quote=“Closet Pankin, post:481, topic:3755”]Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.
I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?
> [@Mutation category expansion](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion/3755/482):
>
> Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.
Via implanted CBMs.[/quote]
On the topic of mutagen, why wouldn’t zeds work? Or maybe even yourself? 🙂
On the topic of shock zombies… I feel like a total idiot right now. Good god, I even knew about that too. Relevant profile description.
---
### Author:  [@Catfoodbob](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Catfoodbob)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/3 "2015-01-15T20:16:37Z")
Hyper- Makes you almost constaintly have shaking, amplifies caffine and stimulants, and reduces all action time by 10% “you might have a semi time dialation if you drink 10 atomic cofffies”
---
### Author:  [@Closet\_Pankin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Closet_Pankin)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/4 "2015-01-15T20:20:45Z")
> [@Catfoodbob](#):
>
> Hyper- Makes you almost constaintly have shaking, amplifies caffine and stimulants, and reduces all action time by 10% “you might have a semi time dialation if you drink 10 atomic cofffies”
Time Dilation after drinking 300 coffees\*
---
### Author:  [@Catfoodbob](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Catfoodbob)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/5 "2015-01-15T20:23:52Z")
> [@Closet Pankin](#):
>
> [quote=“Catfoodbob, post:3, topic:8641”]Hyper- Makes you almost constaintly have shaking, amplifies caffine and stimulants, and reduces all action time by 10% “you might have a semi time dialation if you drink 10 atomic cofffies”
Time Dilation after drinking 300 coffees\*[/quote]
Beats zombie hulk to death with an aluminum keg of atomic coffee whilist drinking all of it
---
### Author:  [@wilson7755](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/wilson7755)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/6 "2015-01-15T20:25:42Z")
Creates a tear in reality, beating the game.
---
### Author:  [@Catfoodbob](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Catfoodbob)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/7 "2015-01-15T20:27:12Z")
I could imagine there would be a point where you have negative movement speed where time flows backwards
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### Author:  [@Closet\_Pankin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Closet_Pankin)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/8 "2015-01-15T20:29:29Z")
> tfw nobody got the reference
---
### Author:  [@Stretop](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Stretop)
#### Post date: [January 15, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/9 "2015-01-15T20:30:15Z")
> [@Catfoodbob](#):
>
> I could imagine there would be a point where you have negative movement speed where time flows backwards
So you go back in time, prevent the Cataclysm and win the game!
---
### Author:  [@nickspaceman](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nickspaceman)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 2:19am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/10 "2015-01-16T02:19:25Z")
> [@Stretop](#):
>
> [quote=“Closet Pankin, post:481, topic:3755”]Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.
I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?
> [@Mutation category expansion](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion/3755/482):
>
> Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.
Via implanted CBMs.[/quote]
maybe use npcs?
---
### Author:  [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/11 "2015-01-16T02:25:16Z")
> [@nickspaceman](#):
>
> [quote=“Stretop, post:1, topic:8641”][quote=“Closet Pankin, post:481, topic:3755”]Why not make it that with a high enough cooking and other relevant skill, you could design tier two mutagens? Discover and develop them yourselves after your character has become familiar with mutagens. I don’t mean the character design them yourselves, but have a wide range of premade ‘hidden’ mutations that your character can design based on the new world, with more specific and ‘exotic’ mutagens such as salamander, wasp, snake, etc.
I suppose that mutagen design requires extensive experimentation. Where would you gather test-subjects for this?
> [@Mutation category expansion](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion/3755/482):
>
> Also, how do shock zombies do mad zaps? Never understood that.
Via implanted CBMs.[/quote]
maybe use npcs?[/quote]
XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.
(There already are non-purifiable mutations. I don’t advertise them as such in-game, but they exist.)
The current crafting system kinda requires folks to know what they’re making, so the closest we can currently get to a PC-driven research program would be making Obfuscated Mutagen\_Foo and letting the player take notes…which only works until the info finds its way onto the wiki and forums.
So yeah, currently not feasible.
---
### Author:  [@Bonevomit](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Bonevomit)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 3:19am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/12 "2015-01-16T03:19:58Z")
> [@KA101](#):
>
> XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.
Why not?
---
### Author:  [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 3:40am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/13 "2015-01-16T03:40:53Z")
> [@Bonevomit](#):
>
> [quote=“KA101, post:11, topic:8641”]XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.
Why not?[/quote]
For much the same reason that I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.
---
### Author:  [@Bonevomit](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Bonevomit)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/14 "2015-01-16T05:39:53Z")
> [@KA101](#):
>
> [quote=“Bonevomit, post:12, topic:8641”][quote=“KA101, post:11, topic:8641”]XEDRA conducted unethical and body-impinging research. I feel no need to let the player do the same.
Why not?[/quote]
For much the same reason that I object to forced-drugging of NPCs. That will be all.[/quote]
I see what you’re getting at, but that’s a stretch. A big stretch. This is part of my problem. You already have “zombie slaves” in the game. You could make a similar argument then, and yet they exist. Going from that, I don’t think your reasoning holds up.
Involuntary mutants do exist, so this is already happening. You can even play as one. Doing fucked up or unethical things to people isn’t anything new either. So how is this different from all of that? I’m genuinely curious as to how this crosses the line all of a sudden. There seems to be plenty of precedent saying it should be okay.
And after all, what is a mad scientist without his unwilling test subjects? This isn’t something terribly controversial, you see similar stuff in Saturday morning cartoons.
---
### Author:  [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 6:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/15 "2015-01-16T06:21:57Z")
It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.
Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.
You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.
I expect better.
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### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/16 "2015-01-16T06:27:07Z")
It’s a very simple and clear line being crossed, a torturous action being performed on a living person.
I see no value in adding the ability to do actions of this kind to the game.
---
### Author:  [@Bonevomit](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Bonevomit)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/17 "2015-01-16T11:27:31Z")
[quote=“KA101, post:15, topic:8641”]It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.
Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.
You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.
I expect better.[/quote]
attacking a weak or fleeing opponent is not consensual, raping a corpse is still rape(with the help of space goo doesn’t change that), you can literally tie up your zlaves and nuke the refugee center just for the fun of it. And as for things going on off screen, you forget the mutant fetuses you see scattered throughout the labs of the game, the broken cyborgs being denied death, and the contents of that unmarked cabin you find somewhere in the woods. There is plenty of fucked up involuntary shit that goes on right before your eyes.
I don’t know what you expect from me. I asked a question and disagreed with your answer. As far as I know, I am allowed to do that.
> We don't have to be happy with dissenting views, nor do they always prevail. But it's good to at least check on problem reports.
This is simply a dissenting view, albeit one that you don't sympathize with. Give me a break.
---
### Author:  [@EkarusRyndren](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/EkarusRyndren)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 11:41am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/18 "2015-01-16T11:41:38Z")
[quote=“Bonevomit, post:17, topic:8641”][quote=“KA101, post:15, topic:8641”]It’s one thing to fight someone. Fighting reanimated corpses is similar. It’s a fight, and they can do unto you as you do unto them.
Exploiting the reanimated corpse is another issue, but there it’s reanimated: the corpse’s former humanity has already been violated. And still it’s a nasty morale hit. Frankly, it wasn’t my idea, and I’ve no problem with removing zlaves if their existence makes you or others think that mucking about with NPCs’ living bodies is somehow OK.
You don’t get to forcibly mutate others for the same reason that you don’t get to put mutagen in the water supply, you don’t get to force people into bondage gear and tie them to tables, and you don’t get to otherwise be a bloody rapist, impinging on someone’s body for your personal/scientific/sexual gratification. To the degree that involuntary mutation happened in DDA, it happened off-screen.
I expect better.[/quote]
attacking a weak or fleeing opponent is not consensual, raping a corpse is still rape(with the help of space goo doesn’t change that), you can literally tie up your zlaves and nuke the refugee center just for the fun of it. And as for things going on off screen, you forget the mutant fetuses you see scattered throughout the labs of the game, the broken cyborgs being denied death, and the contents of that unmarked cabin you find somewhere in the woods. There is plenty of fucked up involuntary shit that goes on right before your eyes.
I don’t know what you expect from me. I asked a question and disagreed with your answer. As far as I know, I am allowed to do that.
> We don't have to be happy with dissenting views, nor do they always prevail. But it's good to at least check on problem reports.
This is simply a dissenting view, albeit one that you don't sympathize with. Give me a break.[/quote] Let me understand your logic, because somebody did something bad sometime you too should do something bad? ...I wasn't aware people actually thought like that, I thought it was just sunday morning cartoon villains.
Fallout had The Master forcibly capturing wastelanders and turning them into super mutants against their will, but I don’t seem to recall that chunk of Fallout where you did the same.
The Reapers in Mass Effect were hellbent on destroying the universe, I don’t recall so much as being given the option to blow up a planet, let alone destroy the universe.
Payday has you robbing banks and selling large quantities of drugs to dealers, I don’t recall a “blow up the orphanage” mission. Hell, the game penalizes you for killing civilians.
Saints Row glorifies crime in every way shape and form, yet I don’t recall the “rape x number of people” achievement.
Just because something could be done in a game, doesn’t mean it should.
---
### Author:  [@Darkfirephoenix](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Darkfirephoenix)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/19 "2015-01-16T12:18:50Z")
And what if we test our cutting edge mutagens on VOLUNTEERS? Ofc only after telling them all the risks, drawbacks etc.
Also: Could we give our companions mutagens/serums if we asked them and they said yes to it? I can imagine that most people would nearly instantly say yes to the Alpha stuff, after a bit say yes to the Medical stuff and after quite some thinking may say yes to the other mutagens (besides those with hard drawbacks like chimera).
You don’t always have to rely on unwilling “test-subjects” to make progress, BUT if you work with volunteers you should slow your progress as not to cause too much damage/possible deadly mutations to the volunteers/MAYBE be able to revert the mutations with purifier. I think that the people in the labs didn’t give a flying fu…k about the test subjects and just pushed the research as fast as they could (mainly to help with the appearing problems), but now you could research in relative “peace” because rushing won’t give you anything now the shi…t already hit the fan.
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### Author:  [@iceball3](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/iceball3)
#### Post date: [January 16, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutation-category-expansion-experimenting-on-npcs-derail/8641/20 "2015-01-16T13:22:14Z")
On prior discussion: We can currently torture NPCs to death using a spork and a tazer. And them proceed to eat them. Draw your own conclusions.
Are innoccent npcs going to end up unkillable at this rate?
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