# Mutagen is too rare compare to CBM

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [April 25, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479 "2015-04-25T03:50:53Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![nuttycompany](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3bc359/32.png) [@nuttycompany](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nuttycompany)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 3:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/1 "2015-04-25T03:50:53Z")

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Hi, I just play cata again yesterday (the last I playis ver.B)

I notice that mutagen drop is much lower than before. I raid 2 labs down to the lowest floor, only find 2 mutagen and 4 serum. Didn’t get me pass mutant treshold.  
And I don’t see them drop from zombie scientice or sciencentice corpse at all.

Compare to CBM that you can find in CBM room, lab crate, take it from zombies.  
You can easily go down to the lab and emerge as a badass cyborge.

I remember there is a discussion about their role.  
CBM suppose to be a long term goal. Powerful all round, stable, not many downside but take time and hard to get.

While mutagen is a wildcard. Can make you powerful rightaway with fancier power but come with many negative effect. And in the end of the line you don’t really be that powerful compare to CBM user.

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**Author:** ![Azrad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Azrad](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Azrad)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 9:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/2 "2015-04-25T09:17:31Z")

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Once you get the needed books for it you can easily mass produce mutagen since the ingredients are fairly common. From my lab trips, the rarer serums seem only available via crafting.

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**Author:** ![Coolthulhu](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/coolthulhu/32/2446_2.png) [@Coolthulhu](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Coolthulhu)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 10:10am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/3 "2015-04-25T10:10:29Z")

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I agree about generic mutagen being too rare.  
It should be about cooking 4 lvl and drop like such an item.

Until CBMs get a hard limit on their number, mutagens should be more common and possibly forced on the player by some exotic monster (mutator zombie?).

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**Author:** ![nuttycompany](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3bc359/32.png) [@nuttycompany](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nuttycompany)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/4 "2015-04-25T12:30:20Z")

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> [@Azrad](#):
>
> Once you get the needed books for it you can easily mass produce mutagen since the ingredients are fairly common. From my lab trips, the rarer serums seem only available via crafting.

A problem is, the time used to learn cooking skill is as much as the time use to learn mechanic and science for CBM.  
So, except for rp reason, there is no benefit to go mutant route at all.

Also, I just raid ant hill. Found 5 CBM, no mutagen ☹

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**Author:** ![Snaaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Snaaty](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Snaaty)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/5 "2015-04-25T14:34:06Z")

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Regarding the cbm/mutation balance we also really need that cbm-nerf in the form of limited space to install those.

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**Author:** ![Valpo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valpo/32/341_2.png) [@Valpo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valpo)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/6 "2015-04-25T14:50:45Z")

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A basic survivor is so extremely powerfull that he doesn t need thing like mutations or petty toys like cbms.

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**Author:** ![ArgusTheCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@ArgusTheCat](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ArgusTheCat)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/7 "2015-04-25T23:17:33Z")

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I really like the idea of a Genetic Expression Device as an “enemy” that sits in the middle of some cities. It’s basically just a turret, but it blankets everything within two or three map tiles with a constant mutator effect, as if you were in low radiation, but without the hair loss. Early game survivors just have to tough it out as they scavenge, but mid or late game survivors have the choice to drop a mininuke on it or hit it with a bus, thus shutting off the field.

It could work as a good replacement for the lost copious amounts of mutagen, maybe.

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**Author:** ![Thwap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Thwap](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Thwap)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/8 "2015-04-25T23:40:34Z")

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[quote=“ArgusTheCat, post:7, topic:9479”]I really like the idea of a Genetic Expression Device as an “enemy” that sits in the middle of some cities. It’s basically just a turret, but it blankets everything within two or three map tiles with a constant mutator effect, as if you were in low radiation, but without the hair loss. Early game survivors just have to tough it out as they scavenge, but mid or late game survivors have the choice to drop a mininuke on it or hit it with a bus, thus shutting off the field.

It could work as a good replacement for the lost copious amounts of mutagen, maybe.[/quote]

The only reason I’d keep playing if something like this existed is because I could mod it out.

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**Author:** ![Coolthulhu](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/coolthulhu/32/2446_2.png) [@Coolthulhu](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Coolthulhu)\
**Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/9 "2015-04-25T23:57:00Z")

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There could be a mutating lab, like ice lab but with constant mutation getting worse the deeper you get.

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**Author:** ![infectedmochi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/infectedmochi/32/206_2.png) [@infectedmochi](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/infectedmochi)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/10 "2015-04-26T01:21:50Z")

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Sounds awesome, a special lab, or just a specific floor where extensive mutation experiments were being conducted when the cataclysm struck would be a good place to house this device, then wil sort of turn into a minigame of “find and destroy the device before you mutated something bad.”

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**Author:** ![secretfire](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/secretfire/32/2984_2.png) [@secretfire](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/secretfire)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/11 "2015-04-26T04:43:04Z")

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I agree with Coolthulhu, but go a bit farther. I think we need:

1. More force-mutation monsters. Particularly for the less desierable mutation lines (fish, anyone?) - there should be buildings on the surface, albeit perhaps not common buildings, where there is some sort of enemy that forces you into them. This can even help balance out particularly crappy mutation lines, where one might not be willing to MAKE mutagen for them, but if they can be forced on a player, it changes the strategy of them, as a new survivor could get them far before they could get into a lab.
2. I’d ultimately like to see occupied/settled labs. Most of the content and buildings in the game right now are appropriate for day 0 or the first month. The new NPC shelter content is the lone exception to that. Ultimately I’d like to see buildings appearing a year into the cataclysm that won’t be there, at all, on day 1 or even season one. This would allow for things like … cracked open and invaded labs where monsters of some type, or survivors of some type, have set up shop and mutated. I mean, the labs are going to be significantly more dangerous 5 years after the cataclysm then they are on day one.

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**Author:** ![prytoclasm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@prytoclasm](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/prytoclasm)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/12 "2015-04-26T04:53:16Z")

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> [@Valpo](#):
>
> A basic survivor is so extremely powerfull that he doesn t need thing like mutations or petty toys like cbms.

Well, there’s one CBM I really don’t want to miss, and that’s the Artificial Night Generator CBM. It’s sooo handy in sooo many circumstances. IF you have the power!

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**Author:** ![Thwap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Thwap](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Thwap)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/13 "2015-04-26T07:31:08Z")

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> [@Coolthulhu](#):
>
> There could be a mutating lab, like ice lab but with constant mutation getting worse the deeper you get.

Otherwise known as “that lab you don’t go into” since there are a potentially endless number of labs out there and most of them don’t cripple your character for going inside.

Honestly the last few posts sound like game-ruining garbage. “Yeah you know how nobody uses fish mutations because they suck? Well we could force them on people! Then fish mutations would be seen more! And that would be good… for some reason!”

Restrict this crap to mods please.

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**Author:** ![infectedmochi](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/infectedmochi/32/206_2.png) [@infectedmochi](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/infectedmochi)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/14 "2015-04-26T15:36:22Z")

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The open-world nature of the game means people don’t have to explore everything, but those who do and want a different challenge found in a typical game can choose to do so.

A simple warning, either directly to the player or as a message on a terminal (probably the latter) should provide enough warning for those who unknowingly wandered into such lab.

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**Author:** ![Zireael](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/zireael/32/956_2.png) [@Zireael](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zireael)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/15 "2015-04-26T16:21:46Z")

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I like the mutating lab idea.

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**Author:** ![vache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ea666f/32.png) [@vache](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/vache)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/16 "2015-04-26T17:41:46Z")

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I had an idea for a mutation lab of sorts that would have some sort of damaging gas in areas where the player had to either risk injury or death to enter, have a containment suit, or find some other way around using other skills. I think a key point for pulling something like that off is that it has to be contained, such that you wouldn’t run into it unless you decided to, and the player has to have a pretty clear idea what the danger actually is. As long as there is some way to circumvent it there should be no problem for making it mandatory to progress. Changing the gas from damage to mutagenic would make sense for the theme and could be done just as easily, though I’m not sure how you would reconcile it with the lore. For instance, if the mutagen were aerosolized, why not make mutagenic spray instead of injections?

I think an injector type monster would make more sense in that situation. When the lab workers started to die and zombify, the other workers injected themselves with massive doses of different varieties to try and fight off the zombies. When they died, they were still full of mutagen and their attacks have a chance to inject some into their target.

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**Author:** ![Coolthulhu](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/coolthulhu/32/2446_2.png) [@Coolthulhu](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Coolthulhu)\
**Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/17 "2015-04-26T18:33:37Z")

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> [@Thwap](#):
>
> [quote=“Coolthulhu, post:9, topic:9479”]There could be a mutating lab, like ice lab but with constant mutation getting worse the deeper you get.

Otherwise known as “that lab you don’t go into” since there are a potentially endless number of labs out there and most of them don’t cripple your character for going inside.

Honestly the last few posts sound like game-ruining garbage. “Yeah you know how nobody uses fish mutations because they suck? Well we could force them on people! Then fish mutations would be seen more! And that would be good… for some reason!”

Restrict this crap to mods please.[/quote]

Mutations are actually way too fucking good. Pretty much the only reason not to be a tentacled abomination is that they have too much of an effect on the ability to wear armor (should cause a lot of encumbrance, not “you can’t wear power armor because you have webbed hands”).

Mutlabs could help to balance the mutations by having people actually test them out, not just have post-endgame grinders purify all the bad ones and keep the good ones.

Mods could probably remove mutlabs rather easily.

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**Author:** ![Murphy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/murphy/32/2371_2.png) [@Murphy](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Murphy)\
**Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/18 "2015-04-27T12:45:47Z")

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I sort of like the mutlab idea. Some of my characters probably wouldn’t go there, but it’s an interesting challenge, and it’s easy to just not go in there if you’re a perfectionist.

Mutating monsters, I’m not sold on. Mutations are already very hard to achieve in good combination (without savescumming), and having a monster ruin your perfect set in one attack is very depressing.

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**Author:** ![Cacophony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@Cacophony](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Cacophony)\
**Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/19 "2015-04-27T14:03:21Z")

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> [@Murphy](#):
>
> Mutating monsters, I’m not sold on. Mutations are already very hard to achieve in good combination (without savescumming), and having a monster ruin your perfect set in one attack is very depressing.

This is exactly the problem. Even with robust genetics, it can be very difficult, depending how generous the RNG is feeling, to get a good combination of mutations that fit your current playstyle. A monster that can mutate you could easily undo ingame days or weeks of work just in mutations, not to mention the fact that you might mutate in such a way as to destroy your equipment.

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**Author:** ![vache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ea666f/32.png) [@vache](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/vache)\
**Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/mutagen-is-too-rare-compare-to-cbm/9479/20 "2015-04-27T14:08:35Z")

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That’s part of the difficulty. Like I said, if something like that were used, it would have to be clear you’re going to encounter it.

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