Moving flaming weapons to a mod

[kilozombie]

A blacklist and a mod have the same problems, as stated by Izicata. If arcana mod suddenly relied on flaming weapons, arcana mod would break without them. If there were a new vehicle part involving flaming weapons, that part could never exist in mainline, only in the flaming weapons mod.

[StopSignal]

It’s almost a personal fight at this point for you Mugling at thsi point… Come on, people just don’t want this to happen, and your arguments are starting to fall. Just ignore the items in the game, they don’t even appear if you don’t craft them. Let the other people have the game they want.

[mugling]

[quote=“mugling, post:50, topic:12545”]As to burden of proof my argument is blacklist mods are hard to maintain and Coolthulhu argument appears to be that they re poorly designed content for mainline.

First of all, they shouldn’t be in a blacklist at all. If not, if they’re in mainline-- your problem is solved utterly.[/quote]

Do you think that it’s likely we could get broad consensus on what blacklist mods can be removed versus packing content as mods?

A blacklist and a mod have the same problems, as stated by Izicata. If arcana mod suddenly relied on flaming weapons, arcana mod would break without them. If there were a new vehicle part involving flaming weapons, that part could never exist in mainline, only in the flaming weapons mod.

That’s how dependencies work. They are already supported in code. Direct question (as in yes/no), have you read and understand the JSON loading code in it’s entirety?

[kilozombie]

That’s how dependencies work. They are already supported in code. Direct question (as in yes/no), have you read and understand the JSON loading code in it’s entirety?

Not at all, so I’m sorry. You have, but it’s not the sole argument at work here.

It’s pathetically easy to add “flaming sword turret” to the “improbable weapons mod”. Would it be hard to add a "are you sure you want to blacklist this item? it may break " message, as a catch-all? Don’t mean that as an attacking question, I’m genuinely curious.

[John_Candlebury]

Meh in all honesty they are pretty useless, they normally get no attention from anyone in the forum. But when you attempt to remove then suddenly everyone loves them.

I guess a semi solution would be to remove most of them (the shishkebab in particular is absolutely useless, the fire zweihander is not much better), remove their humorous? activation messages, remove the option to craft them, make them actually useful, and then add them as bandit loot.

But that’s a lot of work compared to just getting rid of a bunch of useless weapons.

[Izicata]

A hierarchical dependency of mods is something we already support. For example blazemod used to depend on tankmod.

You’re ignoring the issue with that, the one I’ve already raised. Those dependancy mods can contain things the player doesn’t want but needs to include anyway to use the first mod. For example, if someone makes a blazemod vehicle “turret” that’s basically a flaming spear on a mount that automatically attacks zombies, now Blazemod is dependent on the Improbable Weapons Mod, and if someone wants to use blazemod without having chainsaw lajatangs in their game they’re out of luck. Avoiding those kind of situations does require effort, just like avoiding blacklist mod conflicts requires effort.

[quote=“mugling, post:46, topic:12545”]Current policy is to support mods. We confirmed that policy with the recent cleanup of blazemod. Note that myself and Coolthulhu wrote an extensive set of automated tools to salvage that mod.[/quote]Writing said extensive set of automated tools must have been hard to code, and it also is going to need maintenance. You’re willing to spend significant time and effort maintaining mods that add content but not mods that remove content? Why? Especially as I’ve worked with blacklists, and they’re not particularly hard to maintain.

You voted the exact opposite to how you did on github!

And I made mention of it and explained why. If I didn’t do that, nobody would have known I voted in the exact opposite way I did on github, and you wouldn’t be accusing me of opportunism. I’m trying to be transparent about my actions, and you’re saying that’s a reason to suppose I’m being deceptive.

[mugling]

kilozombie there isn’t a need to be sorry for not having read the code (although suggestions that I’m an illiterate robot are a bit questionable). The point I’m making is that I’m forced to maintain that code whenever I do other updates for the game. I could stop maintaining but given that I’ve recently been trying to fix the build issues with your PR that would be an unusual stance.

We couldn’t implement the check you propose due to the uncertain loading order - given there are 53 mods a naive implementation would need to check 4.3e+69 combinations, note there are 69 zeros after that number. A less naive implementation (with a determine load order) still needs to check all possible 18014398509481984 combinations.

Opt-in content packs aren’t a panacea but they are much more maintainable. There isn’t answer to that and given that moving it to a mod doesn’t stop anyone using it I really can’t see the problem.

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:58, topic:12545”]Meh in all honesty they are pretty useless, they normally get no attention from anyone in the forum. But when you attempt to remove then suddenly everyone loves them.

I guess a semi solution would be to remove most of them (the shishkebab in particular is absolutely useless, the fire zweihander is not much better), remove their humorous? activation messages, remove the option to craft them, make them actually useful, and then add them as bandit loot.

But that’s a lot of work compared to just getting rid of a bunch of useless weapons.[/quote]

The problem here is that it costs precisely nothing to argue ad infinitum whereas an implementation actually requires effort.

It was requested that I made an appearance on the forums but I’m not sure how productive it has been and I perhaps have an understanding of why other developers stay away. I’m not sure why StopSignal considers it both a personal argument with him (and apparently by extension the past, present and future userbase). I’ll reply if there are new arguments and I have relevant answers but otherwise I think thats all for now.

[kilozombie]

Have you come to a conclusion? If not-- what happens to the mod?

[StopSignal]

Not an argument with me, but you seemed to take the thing personally to the point of “yes, no, yes, no”.

I see no reason to change anything here, you got two groups of people, the one that don’t want the weapons to go away and the one that doesn’t care if they go away or not, but aren’t pushing for them to be taken away. And then there is you, that wants them off the game. Then just make a blacklist. I for myself like them and use them for fun, and i’d wish new players would see them rathen for them being tucked away in a mod.

[mugling]

Have you come to a conclusion? If not-- what happens to the mod?

Yes, conclusions:

[ul][li]Additional items could be added (7-10 split)[/li]
[li]Mod description could be improved (not critical as easy to update later)[/li]
[li]No further technical argument (mod is backwards compatible and solves the maintenance problem)[/li]
[li]Crafting bloat was raised as new issue, no firm opinion at this time[/li]
[li]Rework has been suggested to improve the items and add unique spawns (could take place in mod)[/li][/ul]

Another developer is required to merge it (two-man rule) and although I know there to be support for that it sits out of my hands for now

[kilozombie]

Another developer is required to merge it (two-man rule) and although I know there to be support for that it sits out of my hands for now

OK, I guess. Seems like arguments that I feel were perfectly valid have been ignored, but I don’t have any power, so it sits out of my hands, too.

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“mugling, post:46, topic:12545”]A hierarchical dependency of mods is something we already support. For example blazemod used to depend on tankmod.

You’re ignoring the issue with that, the one I’ve already raised. Those dependancy mods can contain things the player doesn’t want but needs to include anyway to use the first mod. For example, if someone makes a blazemod vehicle “turret” that’s basically a flaming spear on a mount that automatically attacks zombies, now Blazemod is dependent on the Improbable Weapons Mod, and if someone wants to use blazemod without having chainsaw lajatangs in their game they’re out of luck. Avoiding those kind of situations does require effort, just like avoiding blacklist mod conflicts requires effort.[/quote]

Isnt the answer to this is that mainlined mods should be expected to be self-contained. if blazemod uses a fire weapon then ideally it would copy the rows from the sword and then change the id to “fireweapon_blazemod” the worse that will happen then is that a user who enables both mods will get duplicate recipes.

There’s no real need to add complex ways to check compatibility/dependencies for changes as small as this.

[Izicata]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:65, topic:12545”]Isnt the answer to this is that mainlined mods should be expected to be self-contained. if blazemod uses a fire weapon then ideally it would copy the rows from the sword and then change the id to “fireweapon_blazemod” the worse that will happen then is that a user who enables both mods will get duplicate recipes.[/quote] Exactly. Developer effort is required to avoid these mod issues, just like developer effort is required to avoid blacklist mod issues. Not a ton, but some.

[mugling]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:65, topic:12545”]Isnt the answer to this is that mainlined mods should be expected to be self-contained. if blazemod uses a fire weapon then ideally it would copy the rows from the sword and then change the id to “fireweapon_blazemod” the worse that will happen then is that a user who enables both mods will get duplicate recipes.[/quote] Exactly. Developer effort is required to avoid these mod issues, just like developer effort is required to avoid blacklist mod issues. Not a ton, but some.

Self-contained mods allow division of labor and require only infrequent updates when the JSON parser changes (which automated checks often catch). Blacklist mods are far more intrusive - their list of dependent items goes stale rapidly and maintenance is enforced on a very limited number of developers doing maintenance programming and isn’t at all amenable to automation.

The argument about thematic fit is subjective but the technical one is entirely objective. The JSON loading code is complex so posters who have neither written nor in some cases even read the code cannot possibly be informed, so replies of the nature ‘It’s easy, why don’t you just go and do that for me now because I’m right…’ are non-nonsensical. Why would someone go and apply a lot of effort at a problem that they don’t agree needs solving in the first place given there’s a perfectly rational alternative?

It’s fine to put subjective/opinion decisions to vote. For technical decisions we can (and have) reached decisions by consensus amongst the developers. The problem here is your putting a technical argument (that blacklists are a maintenance problem) to a general vote despite knowing that there are no developers wanting to work on the implementation of one side of the argument.

This is being represented as a decision between removal of content versus the status quo. Instead it’s moving content to a mod versus struggling to keep on top of the bugs with the blacklisting system.

[kilozombie]

This is being represented as a decision between removal of content versus the status quo. Instead it’s moving content to a mod versus struggling to keep on top of the bugs with the blacklisting system.

I guess I’ll restate my final point here-- it shouldn’t be in a blacklist or a mod. It takes nothing away from the game except slightly contributing to the lag in the crafting menu, which is a problem separate from flaming weapons.

[mugling]

[quote=“mugling, post:67, topic:12545”]This is being represented as a decision between removal of content versus the status quo. Instead it’s moving content to a mod versus struggling to keep on top of the bugs with the blacklisting system.

I guess I’ll restate my final point here-- it shouldn’t be in a blacklist or a mod. It takes nothing away from the game except slightly contributing to the lag in the crafting menu, which is a problem separate from flaming weapons.[/quote]

Don’t care either way between those options (mod vs mainline) from a technical POV. However the mod option has an implementation and the mainline approach doesn’t. Also moving to a mod doesn’t stop the 30% of users who use the item from continuing to do so whereas mainlining forces the content on those who don’t want it.

[Adventurer]

If you disagree with me you are bikeshedding.

[Noctifer]

If you disagree with me you are bikeshedding.

I do not think it was so much as disagreeing but the fact that so many people feel compel to voice their opinion on a very trivial issue ( I am too admittedly with his post) while things like this that actually change the game don’t as much.

As for the mod proposal I don’t care one way or another the way it is presented.

[kilozombie]

[quote=“Adventurer, post:70, topic:12545”]If you disagree with me you are bikeshedding.

I do not think it was so much as disagreeing but the fact that so many people feel compel to voice their opinion on a very trivial issue ( I am too admittedly with his post) while things like this that actually change the game don’t as much.

As for the mod proposal I don’t care one way or another the way it is presented.[/quote]
It’s a trivial issue that could lead very, very easily into bigger ones.

Like making a mod for all useless clothing, or a mod for all the not-super-useful vehicle parts, etc… so that those things aren’t ‘mainline’ and get overlooked often.

It’s a slippery slope, that’s what I’ve been saying this entire time.

[StopSignal]

[quote=“Adventurer, post:70, topic:12545”]If you disagree with me you are bikeshedding.

I do not think it was so much as disagreeing but the fact that so many people feel compel to voice their opinion on a very trivial issue ( I am too admittedly with his post) while things like this that actually change the game don’t as much.

As for the mod proposal I don’t care one way or another the way it is presented.[/quote]

To be honest, that rebalance sounds quite good! And on the same cart as Kilo here.