Makeshift knife

[infectedmochi]

Something strange I noticed about the makeshift knife added in 0.9 Ma:
It take 1 spike and 1 rag to make a makeshift knife, 1 spike is easy, just take a rock and smash 2 or 3 lockers and you should have enough scrap metal/chunk of steel to make one. The problem is that 1 rag you need, now where would you find it? Obviously you can smash a window and cut the sheet into rags - but you need a cutting tool (knife) to cut sheet to begin with, it’s illogical because you need a cutting tool to make the most basic cutting tool.
Right now it isn’t a big deal because you always start with a pocket knife, but if you already have that why would you want to craft an inferior makeshift knife? (Beside maybe grinding your skill). It simply doesn’t make sense. Once we have different starting scenarios and the upcoming overhauled professions (namely the new Shower Victim) this will become a real problem since Shower Victim won’t start with a knife - thus making makeshift knife un-craftable as well.

I have several suggestions to remedy this.

1. The most dramatic change, allow characters to tear sheets and maybe clothes with his bare hand. I don’t know what material make up the sheet but in the event of a cataclysm, I think at least the survivor is desperate enough to find the strength to tear a curtain sheet. To balance it with real tools like knife and scissors, we can make the bare hand tearing inefficient by reduce the yield (lower number of rags) and/or increase the chance to just shred the sheet into useless ribbons.
2. I suggested this earlier, broken windows should spawn glass shards, these shards can be used to cut sheets and fabric clothes, this also allow for new makeshift items like glass shiv or glass spear or glass caltrops. The glass shiv can be another kind of the makeshift knife. Basically glass shards open up a new host of possibilities for crafting.
3. Allow the spike to act as a cutting tool.

Personally my favorite is 1 and 2. Option 3 could work, but it would be rather… “uninteresting”.

What do you guys think about this?

[John_Candlebury]

Well I made it that way so that it wouldn’t be extremely easy to get a knife when starting with the shower vctim profession (and in general the other professions that don’t have the knife)

[infectedmochi]

But it seems rather weird don’t you think? You need a knife to make the basic makeshift knife, if you want to make professions like Shower Victim harder to get a knife, I’m sure there are other ways than that. The makeshift knife is already a bad weapon and tool, as soon as you can make it the very tool you using is most likely better as a weapon anyways given that the game has plenty of makeshift weapon recipes and plenty of potential weapons/weapon component just lying around in every houses, the makeshift knife become redundant and serve no purpose other than grinding the fabrication skill.
That doesn’t make sense IMHO.

[John_Candlebury]

[quote=“infectedmochi, post:3, topic:4117”]But it seems rather weird don’t you think? You need a knife to make the basic makeshift knife, if you want to make professions like Shower Victim harder to get a knife, I’m sure there are other ways than that. The makeshift knife is already a bad weapon and tool, as soon as you can make it the very tool you using is most likely better as a weapon anyways given that the game has plenty of makeshift weapon recipes and plenty of potential weapons/weapon component just lying around in every houses, the makeshift knife become redundant and serve no purpose other than grinding the fabrication skill.
That doesn’t make sense IMHO.[/quote]

Well I made it so that those who are knife nuts (like me) could use a combat knife early on to start training the cutting skill instead of using a combat pipe like always, and the knife is actually a good starting weapon, its damage is comparable to the pipe but it is i think 15 points faster per swing and is also good when thrown.

You can also disassemble your T shirt and other pieces of clothing with a sewing kit for the rag but I really never intended the recipe to be an easy tool to get for when i don’t have a knife.

Now the opinion of a third person would be nice

[Inadequate]

Personally I like the option of tearing up a sheet, but you get very little rags for your effort but it takes a lot of time. But once you get a rag you can craft a makeshift knife, and make more rags from that. Conceptually, the makeshift knife is the spike used as a cutting object, with the held end wrapped with a rag so you don’t cut yourself, right? Are there any other soft materials than can be easily obtained without a knife?

[infectedmochi]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:4, topic:4117”]Well I made it so that those who are knife nuts (like me) could use a combat knife early on to start training the cutting skill instead of using a combat pipe like always, and the knife is actually a good starting weapon, its damage is comparable to the pipe but it is i think 15 points faster per swing and is also good when thrown.

You can also disassemble your T shirt and other pieces of clothing with a sewing kit for the rag but I really never intended the recipe to be an easy tool to get for when i don’t have a knife.

Now the opinion of a third person would be nice[/quote]

Hmm I think I get your point here, I think that makeshift knife is kinda misleading as makeshift weapon is worse than their true counterpart. In this case the makeshift knife is often compared with the iconic pocket knife, but the catch here is that makeshift knife is actually BETTER than pocket knife.
Now what do you say if we change the name to something more “neutral” ? Along the lines of spike knife or something. Also, what do you think about a true makeshift knife or at least knife-like tool, I mean a knife that can be crafted without using another knife.

[Miloch]

Some clothing items can be torn up (disassembled) without use of the knife.

[Inadequate]

How about option 3, where you can use the spike as a cutting weapon, but since you don’t have anything wrapped around the held end you deal a bit of cutting damage to your hand every so often? But you can use it to cut up a sheet for rags immediately, and then craft a makeshift knife from that.

[infectedmochi]

How about option 3, where you can use the spike as a cutting weapon, but since you don’t have anything wrapped around the held end you deal a bit of cutting damage to your hand every so often? But you can use it to cut up a sheet for rags immediately, and then craft a makeshift knife from that.

Yep that will work and it’ll be easier too, the occasional small damage is a nice idea. Though I still prefer more “fancy” suggestions.

[Inadequate]

Well, a makeshift knife should be one of the simplest items to make, no need to complicate it. The only alternative materials guaranteed are rocks and wood, and making a useful cutting implement from either of those would be more time consuming than using the metal scraps you have. Not that it shouldn’t be possible, but a person with no survival skill wouldn’t be able to make one off the bat. As for glass shards, I’m not so sure about that, although I would like a way to obtain glass from windows.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

For option 1, I’d be adverse to anything more than a high failure rate, a chance to damage your head, and no more than one rag being made. It’d be nice to have it in a pinch, but we’ve gotta have a significant reason for using tools.

For option 2, as Inadequate said the chance to damage your hands, (on both failure or success), would be good. This’d also apply to option 3.
I think glass shards as cutting implements & weapons would be more realistically integrated once weapon/tool durability is in. Can’t repair a glass shard after all.

For option 3, this is probably the easiest. Chance of injury would help balance it, as would low durability, and a wider difference between low & high quality cutting implements would be nice.

I agree that a knife shouldn’t be required to make a makeshift knife.

I’d also suggest any self-respecting non-noob player activate black road & static NPC- no more looting the shelter. Also provides a better opening narrative.

[John_Candlebury]

So I will change the name?

I could change it to require string instead of a rag but really I dont like the idea of easily crafting more knives if you lost the previous one, losing your knife should be serious business not something you can easily fix

[GrizzlyAdamz]

It might be hard to institute that morality until we can get more quirks on individual items. One combat knife is identical to another after all, & only the item’s stats & pasted name differentiate one cutting implement from another.

Making the makeshift knife unrealistically extraneous isn’t the way to go.

[infectedmochi]

[quote=“John Candlebury, post:12, topic:4117”]So I will change the name?

I could change it to require string instead of a rag but really I dont like the idea of easily crafting more knives if you lost the previous one, losing your knife should be serious business not something you can easily fix[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but IMO it’s not easy to lose your knife, even if when the broken weapon mechanic is implemented I don’t think a knife is gonna break after a couple of fights. Also, I don’t know about others but I rarely use knife as a weapon, makeshift knife maybe but even then other cutting weapon isn’t very hard to craft/find.
I didn’t really mean we make the current makeshift knife easier to craft, just change the name to something less misleading. As for a starter kind of knife, we can have the glass shiv/shard as I had suggested plus the self-inflicted damage other suggested. Or maybe just go with option 3 and give the spike cutting ability.

[John_Candlebury]

Ok I know ill add duct tape as an alternative to the rag that solves the problem IMO

[GrizzlyAdamz]

I am ok with this.

[kevin.granade]

Seems reasonable to be able to tear up cloth in general without a knife, it’s been kind of a blind spot since we just give you a knife at the start.

I disagree that “makeshift knife” is a misleading name in the first place, it’s exactly what it is, if it were “makeshift pocket knife”, sure, but it’s not.

[infectedmochi]

I disagree that “makeshift knife” is a misleading name in the first place, it’s exactly what it is, if it were “makeshift pocket knife”, sure, but it’s not.

While it doesn’t explicitly state “makeshift pocket knife”, pocket knife is such a common starting item for every character that sooner or later the two knives will be compared, and this is where I think it cause confusion.

[kevin.granade]

That doesn’t even make sense, they aren’t just lying around, so the player had to make the thing, which means they know exactly what it is. Somehow they’re going to see, “makeshift knife” scrap metal + rag, and go, “oh, I must be using the scrap metal and the rag to make a pocket knife”.

[MisterFox]

There is currently a stone knife (misc tab) that can be made using materials in and around the shelter (string, rocks, etc). You could make that, use it to cut up some rags, and then make the makeshift knife for now!