# Lower Morale Penalty for Killing Innocents

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [September 24, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440 "2014-09-24T01:01:12Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 16\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![sagethor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/sagethor/32/347_2.png) [@sagethor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sagethor)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/1 "2014-09-24T01:01:12Z")

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I find it perfectly fine having the default morale penalty for killing innocents at -100 morale.

What I dislike about this, is that, unlike the morale penalty for killing zombie children, the morale penalty is consistently -100 morale. I would much prefer that for every innocent killed before the current one, the penalty would be reduced by 1.

So if you killed 5 innocents, your next kill would net you an additional -95 morale, and so forth. Sure, having to kill one-hundred innocents with guilt before you can do so guilt-free is a tad much, but it’s better than nothing, and keeps the Psychopath trait nearly as useful as it was before.

Alternatively, perhaps we could just apply whatever system is in place for zombie children to innocents. That would work as well.

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**Author:** ![Bonevomit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Bonevomit](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Bonevomit)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/2 "2014-09-24T01:27:30Z")

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I don’t see a problem with it other than the gameplay implications with regards to pacifists and psychopaths.

It only makes sense that the more you kill, the less effect it has.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/3 "2014-09-24T02:01:55Z")

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Yea, I don’t have a problem having it taper off over time.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 2:02am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/4 "2014-09-24T02:02:59Z")

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[quote=“Bonevomit, post:2, topic:7440”]I don’t see a problem with it other than the gameplay implications with regards to pacifists and psychopaths.

It only makes sense that the more you kill, the less effect it has.[/quote]

Pacifists have it fluctuate, non-trait has it cap at (say) 25, psychopaths continue as normal?

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**Author:** ![sagethor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/sagethor/32/347_2.png) [@sagethor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sagethor)\
**Post date:** [September 24, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/5 "2014-09-24T19:41:22Z")

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> [@KA101](#):
>
> Pacifists have it fluctuate, non-trait has it cap at (say) 25, psychopaths continue as normal?

That sounds good. I just don’t want to have to always spend time deconstructing rags into thread just to wait out the debuff. 🙂

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**Author:** ![12doze12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/49beb7/32.png) [@12doze12](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/12doze12)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/6 "2014-09-25T13:07:05Z")

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Sometimes the NPC are not as innocent as the game says, once I killed an NPC afte he stole stuff from my tent, I killed him and got the killed innocent trait. (I am aware its probably hard to detect this situations but its very annoying.)

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**Author:** ![Valpo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valpo/32/341_2.png) [@Valpo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valpo)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/7 "2014-09-25T16:46:50Z")

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Well stealing is no valid reason for killing someone most of the time-

ot- I think its reasonable to say that one would stop to care about it if one has killed a hundred innocent people i mean realisticly if you realy kill that many your probably over it (you might have developed some psychosis on the way however xD)

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**Author:** ![sagethor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/sagethor/32/347_2.png) [@sagethor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sagethor)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/8 "2014-09-25T16:49:01Z")

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> [@12doze12](#):
>
> Sometimes the NPC are not as innocent as the game says, once I killed an NPC afte he stole stuff from my tent, I killed him and got the killed innocent trait. (I am aware its probably hard to detect this situations but its very annoying.)

Item ownership is something that Cataclysm handles currently. If it’s not in your inventory, you don’t own it and it’s up for grabs by any NPC. This makes sense, as the government has collapsed, which means that the concept of ownership can’t really be reinforced except by force. I suppose a way of making this work in the future would be to allow players to make cache tiles that increase the volume of a tile, but also attract NPCs to loot it, marking them as “thieves” that can be attacked with perhaps lesser repercussions. You’re going to probably still feel guilty about shooting someone when not in a scenario where you are being directly threatened, though.

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**Author:** ![Robik](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/robik/32/1349_2.png) [@Robik](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Robik)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/9 "2014-09-25T16:52:11Z")

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> [@Valpo](#):
>
> Well stealing is no valid reason for killing someone most of the time-

Though it is in our case. In cataclysm, stealing your food or weapons can result in your death. And it is not like you can go to the police for help 😛

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**Author:** ![Barhandar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@Barhandar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Barhandar)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/10 "2014-09-25T16:55:23Z")

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> [@sagethor](#):
>
> Item ownership is something that Cataclysm handles currently. If it’s not in your inventory, you don’t own it and it’s up for grabs by any NPC. This makes sense, as the government has collapsed, which means that the concept of ownership can’t really be reinforced except by force.

Which could be based on a bunch of flags/spikes with skulls on them and signs warning to not come nearby, to ‘claim’ territory as your own and make everyone not of your faction being there trespassing and taking items thievery (…and possibly making NPCs of your faction attack such thieves).  
Alternately, high dex, high trapping, light step, and trap the HELL out of your loot stash.

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**Author:** ![Robik](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/robik/32/1349_2.png) [@Robik](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Robik)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/11 "2014-09-25T16:59:55Z")

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> [@sagethor](#):
>
> Item ownership is something that Cataclysm handles currently.

Fixed it for you.

Concept that if you don’t hold something directly, you don’t own it is nonsense… Wait, I need free hand, I just put down something for a moment. Oh shit, I don’t own it anymore…

> [@sagethor](#):
>
> as the government has collapsed, which means that the concept of ownership can’t really be reinforced except by force

Heh, how do you think that governments are reinforcing the concept of ownership? By force of course. Difference is only if the police does it, or you directly.

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**Author:** ![Barhandar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ebca7d/32.png) [@Barhandar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Barhandar)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/12 "2014-09-25T17:30:11Z")

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> [@Robik](#):
>
> Heh, how do you think that governments are reinforcing the concept of ownership? By force of course. Difference is only if the police does it, or you directly.

Technically, by fear first, THEN by force. You won’t take if you’re too afraid to take, thus skulls-on-stakes imagery.

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**Author:** ![Valpo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valpo/32/341_2.png) [@Valpo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valpo)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/13 "2014-09-25T17:45:12Z")

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Well a lower moral penalty by killing a thieve might be okay. However its even in a cataclysmic scenario a hard conclusion drawn … item stolen from me = threat to my life? It depends on what was stolen how much you have of it and so forth . And even if its a pretty important item its nota direct atempt on your life thus only a reduced penalty should aply. . Maybe one could simply let you talk to an npc that took an item of you to let you try to make him give it back. And if he does not concede then you should be allowed to use force w/o any major drawback.

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**Author:** ![sagethor](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/sagethor/32/347_2.png) [@sagethor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sagethor)\
**Post date:** [September 25, 2014, 10:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/14 "2014-09-25T22:22:48Z")

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> [@Robik](#):
>
> [quote=“sagethor, post:8, topic:7440”]Item ownership is something that Cataclysm handles currently.

Fixed it for you.[/quote]

Whups, meant to say that it isn’t. Anyway, if someone could work on a PR for this, it would be great.

> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/4323>
>
> \#4314
> 
> both the guilt per kill and duration decrease as the kill count increases… finally stopping altogether when kill count reaches 100, the guilt messages change every 25 kills (these can certainly be improved)

Might come in handy for reference purposes.

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**Author:** ![12doze12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/49beb7/32.png) [@12doze12](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/12doze12)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 11:29am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/15 "2014-09-27T11:29:04Z")

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> [@Valpo](#):
>
> Well a lower moral penalty by killing a thieve might be okay. However its even in a cataclysmic scenario a hard conclusion drawn … item stolen from me = threat to my life? It depends on what was stolen how much you have of it and so forth . And even if its a pretty important item its nota direct atempt on your life thus only a reduced penalty should aply. . Maybe one could simply let you talk to an npc that took an item of you to let you try to make him give it back. And if he does not concede then you should be allowed to use force w/o any major drawback.

I also thought of the ability to ask items back, but I think it might be hard to do.

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**Author:** ![Valpo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valpo/32/341_2.png) [@Valpo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valpo)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2014, 12:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/lower-morale-penalty-for-killing-innocents/7440/16 "2014-09-27T12:21:21Z")

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> [@12doze12](#):
>
> I also thought of the ability to ask items back, but I think it might be hard to do.

Then again i think everything involving item ownership isn t trivial. First the npc should be stabalized before we slap another complicated system on them … id say we keep it in minde for later.