# Is reading better gameplay than grinding? 6 point character problems

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [April 3, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716 "2014-04-03T21:42:46Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 9\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![nonymous](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nonymous/32/281_2.png) [@nonymous](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nonymous)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/1 "2014-04-03T21:42:46Z")

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There’s been a big change in the last couple weeks to skill gain through crafting, and it results from a movement to create a skill system that more realistically depicts skill gain.

I also decided to try a run with the default 6 points, because, as default, that’s the recommended difficulty for beginners, and my others have all been cheated out with 20 or more points.

[https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6849](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/6849)

What do you think about the current balance in skill gain?

My opinion: It makes the 6 point player’s game unbearably monotonous. I grind MORE now because now I have to search for more interesting ingredients. I disassembled all the furniture in the first two buildings I found to get more nails for nords. I save every can of soda for spezi (because that’s harder than boiling water?!)

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**Author:** ![Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/82dd89/32.png) [@Adrian](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Adrian)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/2 "2014-04-03T21:53:51Z")

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> [@nonymous](#):
>
> Is reading better gameplay then grinding?

IMO, yes. Because reading is an intended game mechanic, whereas grinding is the abuse of game mechanics.

But when you think about it, spending two in-game days reading books is equally grind-y. Because you’re not actually doing anything besides waiting until you’ve finished your book. And then, if you want all the recipes from the books, you [R] some more.

I don’t think the current solution is good enough, but it’ll work as a stopgap until a better one can be formulated.

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**Author:** ![nonymous](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nonymous/32/281_2.png) [@nonymous](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nonymous)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/3 "2014-04-03T22:33:33Z")

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I don’t consider regular grinding an abuse of a game mechanic. If I have to cook my meat and boil my water every day to survive, pretty soon there’s gonna be soup. Even if I have never heard of soup before. IRL grinding is called practice or exercise. It makes you better.

Flashlight meditation WAS stupid, but it didn’t break the game and players could take it or leave it.

I’ve played about ten characters now, but I’ve only ever found one library. I’m not trying to make CBMs or Mutagens, I just want to make a smoked sausage and a rechargeable welder. I had a smoker with a character on day one, but I couldn’t make a sausage until year 2, and that reflects poorly on the realism of skill gain.

I would consider a better fix to flashlight meditation and similar problems to be destructive disassembly. Specifically for flashlights, one of the most ubiquitous treasures in the game, they should not always leave enough components to reassemble a full flashlight.

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**Author:** ![halberdsturgeon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7ab992/32.png) [@halberdsturgeon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/halberdsturgeon)\
**Post date:** [April 3, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/4 "2014-04-03T22:59:30Z")

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There is code for destructive disassembly in the game. But it’s mitigated very quickly by skill.

I never really had an issue with grinding. The only time I ever used it was when I needed a point or two of a certain skill level to learn from a book I’d acquired and couldn’t find a less complex book to make up the difference. Also tailoring.

Anyway, recipe skill levels are all over the place at the moment, as you noted in your dog food thread. It was arguably a bad idea to cull skill grinding without going through all of the recipes and making the skill requirements lower, but I imagine no one wants to do that.

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**Author:** ![nonymous](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/nonymous/32/281_2.png) [@nonymous](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nonymous)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/5 "2014-04-04T03:11:45Z")

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Do you think that’s a lack of volunteers or a problem of community displeasure.  
I’d give it a whack. Maybe someone wants to double check my fairness. Talk more on git once i get through the recipes.

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**Author:** ![juliawang87](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8dc957/32.png) [@juliawang87](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/juliawang87)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 6:31am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/6 "2014-04-04T06:31:37Z")

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> [@nonymous](#):
>
> I also decided to try a run with the default 6 points, because, as default, that’s the recommended difficulty for beginners, and my others have all been cheated out with 20 or more points.

I would _not_ say that 6-points is the most recommended for beginners. I mean, as the default I suppose that’s what’s being said, but I kinda feel like such a character is much too weak for new players – new players at risk of playing (and dying) a half dozen times before abandoning the game completely if they’re not Roguelike veterans. I still think the hard cap should be removed and players should be allowed to start with unspent points _or_ having spent too many points… with some red text that says [Game might be too hard!] if you do not spend 6, and [Game might be too easy] if you spend more.

That way, a player could start having used 6-points, die a few times, say, “Screw that, lol!” start a new character with 20-points, achieve a greater amount of success before running into a YASD and, next time, decide to load up with fewer excess points (or more! since it doesn’t really matter how they want to play the game).

But I think 6 is really tough for beginners.

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**Author:** ![Pthalocy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/22d042/32.png) [@Pthalocy](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Pthalocy)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/7 "2014-04-04T06:43:11Z")

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Yeah there’s a bunch of stuff that I seem to have to go out of my way for to obtain, which if I followed the ‘6 is good’ rule, well. …actually I play with the default at 8 just so I have some wiggle room for a fun character, and I still die incredibly easily. 8 is my ‘intended’ mode, via trial and error. I’m not usually going out of my way to do stupid crap and if I am, that’s when the points get jacked to 20.

So. Yes: I am okay with grinding in general, it’s a method of gameplay that rewards you for investing time - but the setup feels a bit split on how the difficulty curve is established (difficulty levels not reflective of recipe contents, for instance).

So it is unclear to me if grinding is in fact the ‘intended’ or ‘mandatory’ route, or just another choice, or something I should avoid if I want to be a good survivor. I would prefer it not to be a mandatory gameplay tactic, since choice is such a key factor in this game’s design. For the same reason, I also wouldn’t rebalance things in an attempt to evade grind entirely either.

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**Author:** ![Zireael](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/zireael/32/956_2.png) [@Zireael](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zireael)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/8 "2014-04-04T07:07:02Z")

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> [@halberdsturgeon](#):
>
> Anyway, recipe skill levels are all over the place at the moment, as you noted in your dog food thread. It was arguably a bad idea to cull skill grinding without going through all of the recipes and making the skill requirements lower, but I imagine no one wants to do that.

Agreed, a review of skill requirements would be a good thing.

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**Author:** ![Sean\_Mirrsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Sean\_Mirrsen](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Sean_Mirrsen)\
**Post date:** [April 4, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/is-reading-better-gameplay-than-grinding-6-point-character-problems/5716/9 "2014-04-04T07:47:26Z")

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> [@Zireael](#):
>
> [quote=“halberdsturgeon, post:4, topic:5716”]Anyway, recipe skill levels are all over the place at the moment, as you noted in your dog food thread. It was arguably a bad idea to cull skill grinding without going through all of the recipes and making the skill requirements lower, but I imagine no one wants to do that.

Agreed, a review of skill requirements would be a good thing.[/quote]I quite agree as well. I’d actually recommend a full re-evaluation of the crafting system at some point, but in the meantime the skill cap “plugs a leak”.