# Ideas to nerf spears

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [December 30, 2017, 9:42am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727 "2017-12-30T09:42:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![proxiehunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e68b1a/32.png) [@proxiehunter](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/proxiehunter)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/21 "2017-12-31T02:50:13Z")

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Or, maybe, since nothings broke we stop trying to fix it.

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**Author:** ![druidniam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/druidniam/32/1368_2.png) [@druidniam](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/druidniam)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/22 "2017-12-31T02:52:39Z")

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> [@Aluminumfoil](#):
>
> However, they should be a pain to cart around except in your hands. You can’t strap an 8-foot piece of wood and pointy objects to your back, stuff it through your belt, or put it in your pack.

That’s not strictly true, there’s a weapon harness that was designed for a pikeman to wear a pike on his back at a wide angle.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/23 "2017-12-31T06:06:51Z")

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> [@kuros](#):
>
> If you’re going to have a Reach weapon, you should have multiple reach weapons to provide an illusion of choice.

That doesn’t follow, if there are other legitimate reach weapons, we can certainly add them, but we aren’t going to add made up weapons just for the sake of variety.

> [@kuros](#):
>
> And honestly, while slow, weighted chains aren’t that difficult to aim at targets 6-10ft away. I do this regularly as part of my performance art.

I didn’t say they would be hard to use, I said they wouldn’t deal much damage. It’s a matter of how much momentum the terminal chain segments have, which generally is not much.

I don’t buy either of the nerfs in the OP, both are contrary to how zombies are supposed to work. There are other zombie buffs I have planned, like making pulling individual zombies harder, which would help a bit vs kiting, and there are various other nerfs and buffs that might help indirectly.

As for reach weapon variety, feel free to make specific suggestions, ideally with stats and references to real world weapons to justify them, and we can look at adding them.

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**Author:** ![sanyaskillpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@sanyaskillpro](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sanyaskillpro)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 11:52am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/24 "2017-12-31T11:52:43Z")

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> Are spears overpowered in early game, and therefore in need of a nerf as your post quite clearly suggests; or are they on par with other weapons?

They are on par with other makeshift weapons in dps and stamina efficiency. But they also have a reach attack.

> the game is balanced around all of the numerous possible builds at chargen

It is not. How can you balance a game around starting as a monomolecular blade guy or a black belt? The point cost is not a problem if you do a standard minmax bullshit.

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**Author:** ![sanyaskillpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@sanyaskillpro](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sanyaskillpro)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 11:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/25 "2017-12-31T11:57:20Z")

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> like making pulling individual zombies harder

That’s a good idea too. Just adding a shriek with about 15 volume to all zombies when they are aggroed may help a lot.

Also, Kevin, can you solve this dispute, is my assumption that the game is balanced around a default character right?

> [@Aluminumfoil](#):
>
> I’d suggest increasing reach-attack weapons’ volume by 10 across the board and keeping everything else the same. Wield it or leave it at home.

One more thing, this wouldn’t work with the current mechanics. Weapon attack speed is automatically calculated from it’s weight and volume. So if you increase spear’s volume, to get the same dps you’d need to lower it’s weight(yay OP stamina efficiency) or it’s raw damage(now you’ll be able to kill soldier Z’s for example). Either way it will make spears even more powerful. Unless we can get a way to manually define weapon speed in JSONs.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/26 "2017-12-31T15:46:15Z")

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> [@sanyaskillpro](#):
>
> Also, Kevin, can you solve this dispute, is my assumption that the game is balanced around a default character right?

With a default character defined as 8 in all stats, no traits, and 0 in all skills? Absolutely not, that’s an unplayable challenge character. You have points for improvement in character generation for a reason, use them.

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**Author:** ![DemAvalon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/demavalon/32/1332_2.png) [@DemAvalon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DemAvalon)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/27 "2017-12-31T16:36:33Z")

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> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> As for reach weapon variety, feel free to make specific suggestions, ideally with stats and references to real world weapons to justify them, and we can look at adding them.

for non piercing weapons the game already has the glaive and naginata as cutting weapons with reach attacks (unless those are from the medievel stuff mod) now for bashing weapons it could be the lucerne hammer and the pole axe

A short explanation on lucerne hammer, pole axe etc…:[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92\_TKngfYFQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92_TKngfYFQ)

pole axe usage explanation: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqZAbzRZ4ow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqZAbzRZ4ow)

Pole axe demonstration: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVYW9r2G3U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdVYW9r2G3U)

if they should have reach attacks is something for someone smarter than me to determine.

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**Author:** ![sanyaskillpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@sanyaskillpro](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sanyaskillpro)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/28 "2017-12-31T18:40:01Z")

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Well i mean more like a limited pool character, who has 2 bonus points for stats, traits and skills. With a reasonable profession. That’s not much of an improvement, unless you minmax traits, but that’s another discussion. I wouldn’t call that an “unplayable challenge character”. This limited pool option was added for a reason, right?

I think broken cyborg is a challenge character, and for a character to be completely unplayable you need to combine 4 str with a bunch of bad traits, like -75% hp, bad back and bad lungs. I’ve tried 4-4-4-4 character and it’s perfectly survivable. Guess how? Spears. There’s no way you can melee anything in the early game with such abysmal stats, but spears make it possible.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/29 "2017-12-31T19:42:43Z")

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> [@sanyaskillpro](#):
>
> That means 8s in stats and no traits\skills on chargen.

> [@sanyaskillpro](#):
>
> who has 2 bonus points for stats, traits and skills. With a reasonable profession.

You might want to decide what you mean before you start asking questions. I’m not interested in playing 20 questions to find out what you’re talking about.

There is no default character that the game is balanced around.

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**Author:** ![sanyaskillpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@sanyaskillpro](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sanyaskillpro)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/30 "2017-12-31T20:14:50Z")

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Fair enough.

I just made an assumption based on reading in desing documents or one of your posts that 8’s in stats are supposed to represent an average human level. So a default traitless character is an Average Joe, and it would make sense to balance a game around it, like in DCSS for example they have a human as an average boring race just to balance the other races around it. The introduction of a limited pool option that tries to keep a character(at least his stats) reasonably close to the default one just reinforced my assumtion.

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**Author:** ![druidniam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/druidniam/32/1368_2.png) [@druidniam](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/druidniam)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/31 "2017-12-31T20:21:58Z")

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> [@sanyaskillpro](#):
>
> Fair enough.
> 
> I just made an assumption based on reading in desing documents or one of your posts that 8’s in stats are supposed to represent an average human level. So a default traitless character is an Average Joe, and it would make sense to balance a game around it, like in DCSS for example they have a human as an average boring race just to balance the other races around it.

The average Joe died and became a zombie. You’re a survivior, a cut above the average Joe in some way. That’s why you have points and professions to take you beyond the average. You survived when 90% of the world didn’t. You aren’t average or just lucky.

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**Author:** ![sanyaskillpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@sanyaskillpro](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/sanyaskillpro)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 12:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/32 "2018-01-01T00:34:12Z")

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Well, if we go with the “default character” idea then the “default” scenario is an evacuee, which kinda implies that is was pure luck that you just happened to be there when shit hit the fan. Some profession descriptions tell that outright. Like electricians, it says that you were just fixing the console for the shelter.

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**Author:** ![proxiehunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e68b1a/32.png) [@proxiehunter](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/proxiehunter)\
**Post date:** [January 1, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/ideas-to-nerf-spears/14727/33 "2018-01-01T02:10:03Z")

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> Well, if we go with the “default character” idea then the “default” scenario is an evacuee, which kinda implies that is was pure luck that you just happened to be there when shit hit the fan. Some profession descriptions tell that outright. Like electricians, it says that you were just fixing the console for the shelter.

Default would be an evacuee survivor, but they would also have all their points spent as well as points from disadvantages which should create a moderately skilled and competent character.

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