Heads-up: Mechanics rebalance -> balance-cap on skills

[noname1208]

[quote=“deoxy, post:49, topic:9282”]Suggestion: break skills into knowledge and competence.

Books would provide knowledge only. Recipes would be knowledge only.

Actually using the skill would provide competence. Having knowledge higher than competence would give a boost to competence skill gain.

Having competence higher than knowledge would give some chance at knowledge improvement when you use the skill - for example, I can learn how to kill better just by doing, but if someone told me the good spots to hit, it would be quite a bit faster than trial and error.

Damage bonuses and such would be governed by the minimum of knowledge and skill, while success rates would be governed by competence. Cap knowledge, not competence - in combat, you would get really good at not missing, but your damage wouldn’t keep going up.

Skill rust would apply to competence, not knowledge - once I know how to do something, even if I’m out of practice at it, I still know what’s to be done, eh?[/quote]

I like this, but for the most part personally I like the current system where we have the speed record threads and the god threads and everything else, just feels like a base part of cataclysm to me, which puts me on the side of not liking the cap idea initially. I think in my current state of the game it could lead to stagnation just because of my play style, but I can also see how the current system would be boring to others or even me after long enough with a character. So my idea is maybe having that skill cap (if it goes that way) but having it be a world gen option. Just a single option to enable skill capping in that world so if you want to try it one day you can, or if you want to go back to making deathmobiles of death you can.

Just thinking outloud… And I do like the thought I quoted

[i2amroy]

I suggested breaking skilling into knowledge and actual skill quite a while ago, unfortunately. Don’t think they devs liked it.

Actually I’d love to do this eventually, but it’s just a very large rewrite for a fairly small benefit. There’s a handful of other rewrites I’d like to get done before I tackle something like that.

[deoxy]

[quote=“Miloch, post:53, topic:9282”]I suggested breaking skilling into knowledge and actual skill quite a while ago, unfortunately. Don’t think they devs liked it.

Actually I’d love to do this eventually, but it’s just a very large rewrite for a fairly small benefit. There’s a handful of other rewrites I’d like to get done before I tackle something like that.[/quote]

As a programmer, I would think that such a change might involve changes in a lot of places, but that those changes would largely be both small and repetitive. Depends on how modular the code is, I suppose.

[Miloch]

[quote=“Miloch, post:53, topic:9282”]I suggested breaking skilling into knowledge and actual skill quite a while ago, unfortunately. Don’t think they devs liked it.

Actually I’d love to do this eventually, but it’s just a very large rewrite for a fairly small benefit. There’s a handful of other rewrites I’d like to get done before I tackle something like that.[/quote]
Good to know. Maybe I’ll find my old post and read what I said back then. It has been quite a while.

[Azrad]

A random/thought suggestion: have the max level of skill be dependent on stats and maybe perhaps traits/mutation. Like having strength at 8 won’t make melee and bashing/cutting skills go higher than level 10. Getting debuffs on stats like pain will reduce some skills similar to having encumbrance, etc…

[Valpo]

I don t see how strength effects how good you would hit a target unless you are wielding a weapon that is to heavy for you.
maybe int can be taken as a cap for what your survivor is capable of understanding … but all the other stats? I can t make sense of it … maybe you want to explain it to me? Also which traits? Are you suggesting new traits like natural aptitude for something? Skills to me are directly linked to your nerv system/brain.

[Azrad]

I haven’t really thought of it too much as it was more or less a random though. In any case, traits… well, take savant for example. With that trait chosen, and like the trait itself, on one skill it can go higher with level 10, but in exchange all the other skills won’t reach level 9 or 10… which is probably really, really, really bad. Erm. Or on a trait like quick/deft/fleet-footed, the skill of dodge can go over 10.

Stats-wise… I really didn’t think this suggestion through, in the end.

[Valpo]

Okay That makes sense. Thx. Not to bad this idea.

[Wally-kun]

I’m of the belief that vehicles need more uses than simply more efficient locomotion. Yeah you can put turrets on it and such but beyond light and a minifridge (which is uncraftable) there are no additional benefits to having a vehicle. After welding a turret on top, another engine or two for power, half a dozen advanced solar panels, reinforcing everything with spiked plates and rams and installing a minifridge, there’s no more reason to ever use the mechanics skill ever again (save CBM’s or something).

I don’t know, it seems like once you have your foundation in place there’s no reason to ever go back on anything. I feel like there should be more things to go to all the trouble to stick two or three extra 8-cylinder engines on if you felt so compelled to do so. Or a fusion generator.

[Valpo]

Making ammo, fast water cleaning, forging, welding, chemistry and cooking. You forgot those benefits. I do not even value turrets and the fridge as high as the benefits i mentioned.

And you ll need your mechanics skill to keep your vehicle running after you have used it in combat a few times or you damaged your engine… somehow.

What exactly is it your picturing as needed for vehicles? more engines mean more power… and i see no reason why it should do more. a reactor is pretty much not needed because the energy consumption of a survivors car can be easily dealt with by adding solar pannels. You want less energy efficiency then so having a reactor is worthwile? Or weaker solar panels maybe?

[Arek_PL]

alslo we have realy rare minireactors for cars too

[Turtlicious]

If we’re doing a re-balance, could we seperate the gun building / modding skills away from the Gun Shooting Skills?

[Vorchar]

Trapping skill has become pretty hard to level up without books or NPCs. Most traps require quite a lot of or expensive compponents and take only couple minutes to make. Perhaps some buffs to exp gain to Trapping would be in order.

[Azrad]

Never had much trouble with traps. Labs and their goo pits is more or less enough for me to reach around level 7 or 8, though I think I need to be level 1 or 2 from books to be able to disarm them.

[Vorchar]

Never had much trouble with traps. Labs and their goo pits is more or less enough for me to reach around level 7 or 8, though I think I need to be level 1 or 2 from books to be able to disarm them.

Need to visit labs more ofthen then. Level 1 is quite easy but tedious with nailboards. Level 2 requires humorous amounts of superglue for trap wires.

[Kryxx]

[quote=“Valpo, post:62, topic:9282”]I don t see how strength effects how good you would hit a target unless you are wielding a weapon that is to heavy for you.
maybe int can be taken as a cap for what your survivor is capable of understanding … but all the other stats? I can t make sense of it … maybe you want to explain it to me? Also which traits? Are you suggesting new traits like natural aptitude for something? Skills to me are directly linked to your nerv system/brain.[/quote]

Muscle memory is a real thing. Training your muscles and body to react properly this is why you do the tasks over and over. Your training the muscles to react in a certain way when you need/want them to. There are many people who are not geniuses but are excellent at martial arts and other physical things. I’m not sure what stat it would be, but to me, it should be an average of str/int/dex

[Valpo]

Muscle memory is also stored in your nervous system and therefor has nothing to do with strength as far as i know. If i am wrong pls point me to something that clarifys how muscle memory actually works so i can learn something new.
I could look myself but as i am convinced that i am right i am to lazy to do it.

[Yossarian23]

Resisting very heavy forces increases the number of motor units which can be simultaneously voluntarily activated. This makesyou stronger. Also improvements in neuromuscular coordination result in effectively greater strength. Muscle memory is a meaningless phrase.

Heavy strength training can result in your nervous system literally growing more physical connections to/in your muscles.

[Arek_PL]

and muscle memory work faster than thinking
lets look at light switch
without memory you think about switching switch
with memory you switch switch without noticing it

this same is with writing on keyboard
when you are used to use one type of keyboard and you remember it you even do not think where keys are you just press them without looking you just think what you want to write

[Vorchar]

[quote=“Arek_PL, post:75, topic:9282”]and muscle memory work faster than thinking
lets look at light switch
without memory you think about switching switch
with memory you switch switch without noticing it

this same is with writing on keyboard
when you are used to use one type of keyboard and you remember it you even do not think where keys are you just press them without looking you just think what you want to write[/quote]
Which is what skill level kind of imitates. Going to gym and pumping iron won’t help you become better at typewriter.

[quote=“Kryxx, post:72, topic:9282”][quote=“Valpo, post:62, topic:9282”]I don t see how strength effects how good you would hit a target unless you are wielding a weapon that is to heavy for you.
maybe int can be taken as a cap for what your survivor is capable of understanding … but all the other stats? I can t make sense of it … maybe you want to explain it to me? Also which traits? Are you suggesting new traits like natural aptitude for something? Skills to me are directly linked to your nerv system/brain.[/quote]

Muscle memory is a real thing. Training your muscles and body to react properly this is why you do the tasks over and over. Your training the muscles to react in a certain way when you need/want them to. There are many people who are not geniuses but are excellent at martial arts and other physical things. I’m not sure what stat it would be, but to me, it should be an average of str/int/dex[/quote]

See above