# Guns, too many? Too few?

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [December 17, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531 "2013-12-17T06:50:35Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![EkarusRyndren](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/ekarusryndren/32/80_2.png) [@EkarusRyndren](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/EkarusRyndren)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/1 "2013-12-17T06:50:35Z")

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[center][size=20pt]THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE SPAWN RATE OF FIREARMS IN CATACLYSM. THIS IS ABOUT THE TYPES OF FIREARMS AVAILABLE.[/size][/center]

I want your opinion folks. Please note a calm, sensible argument carries a hell of a lot more weight in a decision than “OMFG DON’T TAKE AWY MAH GUNNNNNNNNNNNZ” I’d like to look into removing a few to be honest, but I’d like to hear your opinions.

None Yet

Still None

Even more none

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**Author:** ![Ander\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ccd318/32.png) [@Ander\_Hammer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Ander_Hammer)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/2 "2013-12-17T07:06:34Z")

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Cataclysm is a game based on surviving and thriving in a post-apocalyptic environment, not a guided tour of firearms history. Any gun that does not bring any new ideas or mechanics to the game, is nearly identical to a firearm already implemented, is so rare as to be impossible to actually find in real life, or simply would not be found in the general setting should be saved for a mod, not pushed to mainline.

Rivtech and powerful but limited caseless ammunition? Fine. Shotgun pistol? Neat. Mininuke launcher? Hilarious. A four-shot pistol that is rarer and a little more or less effective than another gun of the same caliber and approximate size? Pls no. Comically big rifle/pistol calibers? Put them in a mod.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/3 "2013-12-17T07:12:23Z")

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As I understand the lore, the population was encouraged to arm up in case Teh Commiez invaded, so restrictions on civilian gun ownership would be somewhat lesser than now, and it’s OK to have guns in houses.

That has some implications.

a) East Bloc weapons would remain justifiably rare: how did you get them? Are you now, or have you ever been, affiliated with the Reds? How can we trust you not to use that AK on us?

b) Milspec hardware would still be fairly uncommon. A Mini-14 or 30.06 would be plenty for most households. Shotguns can be confined to pump, maybe semi-auto. The military doesn’t need civilians trying to outgun them.

c) Ammo for either would be DEFINITELY difficult to come by. What’s the point in manufacturing ammo for weapons that aren’t commonplace on the civilian market?

I’ll stop there for now.

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**Author:** ![Ander\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ccd318/32.png) [@Ander\_Hammer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Ander_Hammer)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/4 "2013-12-17T07:33:11Z")

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> [@KA101](#):
>
> As I understand the lore, the population was encouraged to arm up in case Teh Commiez invaded, so restrictions on civilian gun ownership would be somewhat lesser than now, and it’s OK to have guns in houses.

This seems to imply guns would be more common but perhaps less diverse. One very solidly primary, most-common spawn, with at most the occasional acquisition of a pistol of a different caliber or an older-type shotgun.

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**Author:** ![HunterAlpha1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@HunterAlpha1](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/HunterAlpha1)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:37am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/5 "2013-12-17T07:37:46Z")

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i think guns should continue to be plentiful, but maybe slightly reduce the ammo supply. this is the Cataclysm, the military bunkers have mostly been broken into and looted, guns are everywhere, but much of the ammo has been used up by the survivors fighting monsters and each other.

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**Author:** ![HunterAlpha1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@HunterAlpha1](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/HunterAlpha1)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:38am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/6 "2013-12-17T07:38:40Z")

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oh, and thanks for increasing the various ingredients that can be used to reload; i’ve been waiting for this for a long time.

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**Author:** ![Zaweri\_Runewright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/5e9695/32.png) [@Zaweri\_Runewright](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zaweri_Runewright)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:46am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/7 "2013-12-17T07:46:06Z")

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No problem, HunterAlpha. (I made ALL the alternate ammo components.)  
Good tip, if you go in to a police station or whatever, pick up and disassemble the sheriff stars, you get silver which you can use in making ammo as well. Also relics found in church basements, candlesticks, gold rings, silver necklaces etc. are good sources of reloading components. The ones I find most reliable are disassembled pewter pots and solder.

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**Author:** ![EkarusRyndren](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/ekarusryndren/32/80_2.png) [@EkarusRyndren](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/EkarusRyndren)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:47am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/8 "2013-12-17T07:47:46Z")

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@HunterAlpha & Zaweri I should clarify, this isn’t about the spawn rate of weapons it’s about the types of weapons.

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**Author:** ![Inadequate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Inadequate](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Inadequate)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:49am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/9 "2013-12-17T07:49:50Z")

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I agree with Hammer, spawn rates are fine as they are now, but there don’t need to be so many practically identical guns/ammo types in the game.

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**Author:** ![ClaytonRISING](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/claytonrising/32/75_2.png) [@ClaytonRISING](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ClaytonRISING)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/10 "2013-12-17T07:52:55Z")

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Additions: More PDW’s (Personal Defense Weapons), firearms that are usually handled/sized as SMG’s but firing a rifle caliber round. Very compact and modular, but lacking the punch of a rifle and usually lacking the fire rate of an SMG.

Chopping Block: RivTech weapons…pls no.

Rebalance: SMG’s are starting to feel like Call of Duty SMG’s: too accurate at longer ranges.

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**Author:** ![Zaweri\_Runewright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/5e9695/32.png) [@Zaweri\_Runewright](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zaweri_Runewright)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/11 "2013-12-17T07:54:46Z")

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Personally, I speak for the gun nuts. While I do agree that Cataclysm has too many guns, we could have a worldgen option that replaces all the gun spawns with simplified “pistol” “smg” “rifle” “shotgun” “rocket launcher” “mininuke launcher”, and the corresponding ammo. I do not want guns to be removed from Cataclysm, I am a gun nut myself, though, so it is kind of instinctive.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/12 "2013-12-17T07:57:45Z")

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> [@Ander Hammer](#):
>
> [quote=“KA101, post:3, topic:4531”]As I understand the lore, the population was encouraged to arm up in case Teh Commiez invaded, so restrictions on civilian gun ownership would be somewhat lesser than now, and it’s OK to have guns in houses.

This seems to imply guns would be more common but perhaps less diverse. One very solidly primary, most-common spawn, with at most the occasional acquisition of a pistol of a different caliber or an older-type shotgun.[/quote]

Primarily hunting rifles with either handguns or shotguns for home-defense, sure. One True Spawn seems a bit much–the government didn’t issue people weapons or subsidize one firearm over another (at least not any more than they do via defense contracting, etc).

Focusing on compatible ammo-types would make a lot of sense from the Civil Defense perspective: encourage civilians to stock up on .223 and 9mm weapons (and the manufacturers to ensure plenty of supply to meet demand), so if the worst-case happens the military can get ammo from civilian sources. Whether that’d actually happen is a completely different story.

(I think .223 and 5.56 NATO are intercompatible. But my experience is chiefly JA2 1.13–not a particularly reliable source. :-/ )

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**Author:** ![EkarusRyndren](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/ekarusryndren/32/80_2.png) [@EkarusRyndren](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/EkarusRyndren)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/13 "2013-12-17T07:58:24Z")

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> [@Zaweri Runewright](#):
>
> Personally, I speak for the gun nuts. While I do agree that Cataclysm has too many guns, we could have a worldgen option that replaces all the gun spawns with simplified “pistol” “smg” “rifle” “shotgun” “rocket launcher” “mininuke launcher”, and the corresponding ammo. I do not want guns to be removed from Cataclysm, I am a gun nut myself, though, so it is kind of instinctive.

I feel this is simplifying it too much, I’m talking things like pulling the RPG-7s from American military bases… Because you wouldn’t see that kind of thing.

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**Author:** ![ClaytonRISING](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/claytonrising/32/75_2.png) [@ClaytonRISING](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ClaytonRISING)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 7:59am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/14 "2013-12-17T07:59:59Z")

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> [@EkarusRyndren](#):
>
> [quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:11, topic:4531”]Personally, I speak for the gun nuts. While I do agree that Cataclysm has too many guns, we could have a worldgen option that replaces all the gun spawns with simplified “pistol” “smg” “rifle” “shotgun” “rocket launcher” “mininuke launcher”, and the corresponding ammo. I do not want guns to be removed from Cataclysm, I am a gun nut myself, though, so it is kind of instinctive.

I feel this is simplifying it too much, I’m talking things like pulling the RPG-7s from American military bases… Because you wouldn’t see that kind of thing.[/quote]

At my National Guard armory they have two RPG-7’s in stock 😛

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**Author:** ![EkarusRyndren](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/ekarusryndren/32/80_2.png) [@EkarusRyndren](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/EkarusRyndren)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/15 "2013-12-17T08:01:56Z")

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> [@Clayton](#):
>
> [quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:13, topic:4531”][quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:11, topic:4531”]Personally, I speak for the gun nuts. While I do agree that Cataclysm has too many guns, we could have a worldgen option that replaces all the gun spawns with simplified “pistol” “smg” “rifle” “shotgun” “rocket launcher” “mininuke launcher”, and the corresponding ammo. I do not want guns to be removed from Cataclysm, I am a gun nut myself, though, so it is kind of instinctive.

I feel this is simplifying it too much, I’m talking things like pulling the RPG-7s from American military bases… Because you wouldn’t see that kind of thing.[/quote]

At my National Guard armory they have two RPG-7’s in stock :P[/quote]

…With ammo and intent to use them? If so I’ll stand corrected, but you understand my point right?

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**Author:** ![ClaytonRISING](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/claytonrising/32/75_2.png) [@ClaytonRISING](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ClaytonRISING)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/16 "2013-12-17T08:04:22Z")

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> [@EkarusRyndren](#):
>
> [quote=“Clayton, post:14, topic:4531”][quote=“EkarusRyndren, post:13, topic:4531”][quote=“Zaweri Runewright, post:11, topic:4531”]Personally, I speak for the gun nuts. While I do agree that Cataclysm has too many guns, we could have a worldgen option that replaces all the gun spawns with simplified “pistol” “smg” “rifle” “shotgun” “rocket launcher” “mininuke launcher”, and the corresponding ammo. I do not want guns to be removed from Cataclysm, I am a gun nut myself, though, so it is kind of instinctive.

I feel this is simplifying it too much, I’m talking things like pulling the RPG-7s from American military bases… Because you wouldn’t see that kind of thing.[/quote]

At my National Guard armory they have two RPG-7’s in stock :P[/quote]

…With ammo and intent to use them? If so I’ll stand corrected, but you understand my point right?[/quote]

Haha nah, no ammo and they look like they’re about to fall apart, anyways. I just wanted to throw that in there: I’ve held an RPG-7 before 😃

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**Author:** ![HunterAlpha1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@HunterAlpha1](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/HunterAlpha1)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/17 "2013-12-17T08:09:40Z")

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> [@KA101](#):
>
> [quote=“Ander Hammer, post:4, topic:4531”][quote=“KA101, post:3, topic:4531”]As I understand the lore, the population was encouraged to arm up in case Teh Commiez invaded, so restrictions on civilian gun ownership would be somewhat lesser than now, and it’s OK to have guns in houses.

This seems to imply guns would be more common but perhaps less diverse. One very solidly primary, most-common spawn, with at most the occasional acquisition of a pistol of a different caliber or an older-type shotgun.[/quote]

Primarily hunting rifles with either handguns or shotguns for home-defense, sure. One True Spawn seems a bit much–the government didn’t issue people weapons or subsidize one firearm over another (at least not any more than they do via defense contracting, etc).

Focusing on compatible ammo-types would make a lot of sense from the Civil Defense perspective: encourage civilians to stock up on .223 and 9mm weapons (and the manufacturers to ensure plenty of supply to meet demand), so if the worst-case happens the military can get ammo from civilian sources. Whether that’d actually happen is a completely different story.

(I think .223 and 5.56 NATO are intercompatible. But my experience is chiefly JA2 1.13–not a particularly reliable source. :-/ )if memory serves, a gun chambered in 5.56 can fire both, but if chambered for .223 can only fire .223 because 5.56 is a more powerful military round. [/quote]if i remember

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**Author:** ![Zaweri\_Runewright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/5e9695/32.png) [@Zaweri\_Runewright](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zaweri_Runewright)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 8:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/18 "2013-12-17T08:32:58Z")

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.223 can fire 5.56mm NATO and vice versa, the bullets for both guns are .223, only the internal diameters of the casings are different. Thus, rifles chambered for .223 might not hold up if you continuously fire 5.56mm NATO ammo. Same goes for .308 and 7.62x51 NATO, and .30-06 and .270 Win

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**Author:** ![Ander\_Hammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ccd318/32.png) [@Ander\_Hammer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Ander_Hammer)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:44am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/19 "2013-12-17T09:44:53Z")

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> [@Clayton](#):
>
> Additions: More PDW’s (Personal Defense Weapons), firearms that are usually handled/sized as SMG’s but firing a rifle caliber round. Very compact and modular, but lacking the punch of a rifle and usually lacking the fire rate of an SMG.

So… SMGs without burstfire that shoot rifle calibers. Not overwhelmingly interesting, but a way to use rifle ammo better at close range, I guess.

> [b]Chopping Block[/b]: RivTech weapons...pls no.

Pls more substantial reason than ‘I don’t want it’ or ‘MAI IMMERSHUN’.

> [b]Rebalance[/b]: SMG's are starting to feel like Call of Duty SMG's: too accurate at longer ranges.

Do… do you use SMGs? They’re way better up close than at range already.

I think the purpose of this thread was to avoid detailed discussions of firearms physics, so would you kindly.

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**Author:** ![ClaytonRISING](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/claytonrising/32/75_2.png) [@ClaytonRISING](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ClaytonRISING)\
**Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:49am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/guns-too-many-too-few/4531/20 "2013-12-17T09:49:48Z")

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> So... SMGs without burstfire that shoot rifle calibers. Not overwhelmingly interesting, but a way to use rifle ammo better at close range, I guess.

Nope, PDW’s 😃 The very first PDW was the American M1A1 from World War 2.

> Pls more substantial reason than 'I don't want it' or 'MAI IMMERSHUN'.

Way too overpowered and teh’ ammo (especially caseless) is absurdly abundant, making her “end game” weapons…uh…not…end…game…weapons…

Oh! And they’re OP.

> Do... do you use SMGs? They're way better up close than at range already.

Yes.No.Maybe.Wut.

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