# Greatbow balance

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/greatbow-balance/17474>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [November 13, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/greatbow-balance/17474 "2018-11-13T21:59:03Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Showing post:** 9

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**Author:** ![darktoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@darktoes](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/darktoes)\
**Post date:** [November 14, 2018, 10:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/greatbow-balance/17474/9 "2018-11-14T10:04:12Z")

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> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> You can start with…

4 dexterity and 4 perception. You still paid heavily for the 18 strength, when you could have had balanced stats or spent more points on skills. You could have just as easily put points into unarmed and a martial art and been nigh-unkillable, people do that all the time. I see no issue here whatsoever.

You’re legitimately building a character around using that bow. I don’t know what you expected.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> The difference is, melee enemies have 0 chance to retaliate even if you miss or fail to hit them with the bow as long as you left an extra tile for them to move before they can actually engage.

Spears do the same thing.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> That, and you can pre-aim a bow shot for effectively guaranteed hit/head-shot. Something you can’t do with melee.

A setup action to guarantee a critical hit in melee would be really cool. You should put that in the needful things thread.  
Again, I don’t see an issue here beyond a comparison to melee. Melee is still faster and has no ammunition requirements, plus you don’t need a specific strength build to use the top melee weapons.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> Archery is easy to train, perception does not matter if you are attacking from 1 tile away.

I suppose? Seems you’re just exploiting close-range shots. You could do the same with a shotgun or any number of other guns, and those don’t have the range of the greatbow. Have you tried this build against anything other than basic zombies? A hulk maybe, or a military grade turret?

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> What makes you think normal arrows and normal bow materials are even capable to withstand this kind of forces for more than one shot?

It uses normal arrows because they’re an abstraction. Arrows are surprisingly complex and have a number of factors in their make and manufacture, so ingame you use the same arrows for a 30lb youth bow as a 120lb warbow, despite that being unrealistic. They’re also surprisingly strong, all things considered, and would probably have little issue with a 300, maybe 400lb draw weight. That said, I could modify them to use heavier arrows, and I might, but it’s not a large concern for now.

As for materials, you can make any poundage bow out of any materials (within reason). You just need more of the materials. Thicker limbs, thicker strings. There are all kinds of youtube videos of people making insane poundage bows, it’s just a matter of using the materials correctly.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> And even with all that 35 base damage is ridiculous. That’s almost twice the composite crossbow!

The composite crossbow isn’t a fair comparison, it’s a handheld crossbow of lower poundage with no strength restriction whatsoever. A stronger crossbow will be coming soon, it’s just a matter of my getting around to it someday.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> 35 damage make it an equivalent of full-blown heavy assault rifle

Assault rifles have no strength requirement.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/183):
>
> That kind of power should damage the bow and arrows with every shot unless all components are high-quality steel or better.

Nah, wood can take incredible stresses if you use it properly. Ships, ballistas, houses even.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/184):
>
> Both are auto-learn recipes from the same skill level.

They’re the same bow, but one is bigger. Higher poundage. That’s pretty much the only difference.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/184):
>
> Why exactly isn’t there a bow with 31 base damage and 16 min str? A bow with 27 base damage and 14 min str? Etc, etc?

Because I would have to code them all and that’s a pain. Then it’s a pain for all the players who have to try to work out the difference between “50lb Recurve bow” and “55lb Composite bow”. I’ve had this discussion before, the answer is that there’s not enough payoff for that kind of complexity.

> [@Bows, Crossbows and Their Balance](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/bows-crossbows-and-their-balance/17067/184):
>
> And why exactly greatbow gets about +2 extra damage per point of extra strength over longbow when normal melee damage scales at +0.5 damage per point of strength?

Because it shoots harder? Melee scales a bit oddly, I don’t know what else to say.

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