# Firearm accuracy

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675>\
**Category:** The Garage\
**Created:** [December 10, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675 "2017-12-10T18:24:00Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/1 "2017-12-10T18:00:05Z")

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> [@Vehicle Mounted Turrets- Is there a point?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/vehicle-mounted-turrets-is-there-a-point/14632/2):
>
> "guns are shitty right now”

Care to elaborate? Because quite a few people have said this, but in my experience this is the opposite. Guns are alright, and some guns (Read: Rivtech) are high grade.

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/2 "2017-12-10T18:21:16Z")

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> [@Vehicle Mounted Turrets- Is there a point?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/vehicle-mounted-turrets-is-there-a-point/14632/7):
>

Wow, my entire gameplay experience with guns has been different. Handguns have been garbage except for Magnum stuff , while I’ve been straight up wrecking things with Rifles. Mods significantly improve things for me (as long as I use the right balance). Range is never a problem if you get dispersion down to the minimum and aim for me.

SMGs are fucking beast, though. I never bothered using them as Crazy Jack, but I picked one up as Noble Culver and suddenly zombies are dying left, right and center. There’s something nice about a giant freak of nature using a shield an SMG instead of his glorious natural weapons to wreak divine carnage.

Really weird…

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**Author:** ![ShadowDragon8685](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@ShadowDragon8685](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ShadowDragon8685)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/3 "2017-12-10T18:24:00Z")

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Did you get your hands on a scope?

I haven’t found a scope. I’ve been firing my rifles over iron sights.  
Which, still; having _actually fired_ long arms including some of the _exact models in the game_ over the iron sights, I am quite sure that I could hit a lumbering target like a zombie at the distances in question before it could close and attack me.

And IRL I definitely do not have Rifles 7. My Rifles score is _higher_ than my handguns score, but I am still getting consistently better use out of my handgun than my rifles.

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**Author:** ![tarburst98](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/tarburst98/32/1355_2.png) [@tarburst98](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/tarburst98)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/4 "2017-12-10T18:27:00Z")

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a scope jumps the “even chance of hitting” at precise level from 6 to 12 tiles. which shows you just ho much sight dispersion drops your accuracy.

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/5 "2017-12-10T18:27:16Z")

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That’s probably it. I usually have a Rifle Scope, which helps immensely. Also, accurizing your guns. You don’t even need Dispersion lowering mods half the time, you can just hit 45 by using a Gunsmith repair kit.

I’ve been wanting to make a Weapons mod for a while, but I’m waiting for Kevin to move the Dispersion Floor over to item definitions so it can be set to 0.

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**Author:** ![ShadowDragon8685](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@ShadowDragon8685](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ShadowDragon8685)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/6 "2017-12-10T18:28:41Z")

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I’ve accurized everything up to and including 120mm cannons.

It doesn’t seem to help my rifles much. I still miss or graze at any real rifle engagement ranges, and the damn things take too much time to use at shorter ranges. Handguns and SMGs, though, get so, _so_ much better.

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/7 "2017-12-10T18:37:08Z")

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Define “Real Rifle Engagement Ranges”. Because, unfortunately, because of the fact Dispersion is floored at 45, its pretty much a lost cause to hit something after a certain distance because the bullet WILL veer off course.

I’m usually usually a Rifle at a range of 10-20 tiles. Remember that you also have to _aim_, which means both pressing “.” until you’ve achieved a comfortable level of steadiness, and pressing a, c or p.

Steadying also helps a lot if you’re in melee range, because it drastically increases the chance you’ll succeed on a shot.

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**Author:** ![ShadowDragon8685](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@ShadowDragon8685](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ShadowDragon8685)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/8 "2017-12-10T18:42:40Z")

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Please don’t patronize me. I’m bloody well firing at full aim, with no recoil.

And it seems like hitting a target which is so much as two carlengths away is a crap shoot - forget about something near the edge of vision, even when the edge of vision is only down the street a ways, about three houses’ length.

I’m pretty sure I could hit a target which was not actively attempting to spoil my aim at the distance of a hundred yards with a .30-06 rifle. Citation: last month _I put nearly 85% of my rounds on the paper at 100 yards after having gone literally a decade without having fired any firearm at all._ A character with Rifles 7 and Marksmanship 5 might not be Simo Häyhä, but they damn well should be able to reliably drill a zed with a WWII-era rifle or similar long arm at several houses’ distance.

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**Author:** ![Kettle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kettle/32/1383_2.png) [@Kettle](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kettle)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/9 "2017-12-10T18:46:19Z")

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> [@Vehicle Mounted Turrets- Is there a point?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/vehicle-mounted-turrets-is-there-a-point/14632/14):
>
> Please don’t patronize me. I’m bloody well firing at full aim, with no recoil.

please don’t assume malicious intent when someone’s just attempting to help.  
this is a big, complex game - it’s safe to surmise that sometimes people may not know all the ins and outs.

try and keep it civil, yeah?

maybe instead of “hey, this is shit” you could go with “hey, this is my suggested change to an existing mechanics”…

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/10 "2017-12-10T18:47:13Z")

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> [@Vehicle Mounted Turrets- Is there a point?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/vehicle-mounted-turrets-is-there-a-point/14632/14):
>
> Please don’t patronize me. I’m bloody well firing at full aim, with no recoil.

Just checking, man. I had to find this out on my own, so I have no idea how well other people know of this.

Alright, then the problem is probably stats. I use StatsThroughSkills, so I’m usually well off in terms of Perception when firing off my shots. Perception helps a ton.

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**Author:** ![ShadowDragon8685](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@ShadowDragon8685](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ShadowDragon8685)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/11 "2017-12-10T18:49:34Z")

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Yes, it is a big and complex game, but it’s not terribly likely that someone who’s dug into it enough to suggest changes, release mods and intelligently discuss the comparative merits of the firearms in the game has not yet discovered aim levels.

That, and the phrasing psyxypher used came off as patronizing, even if it wasn’t intended as such.

And I’m using stats through skills too; PER 17.  
I think it really just is the dispersion floor.

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/12 "2017-12-10T18:56:26Z")

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Well, one last thing: Do you have the Targeting System CBM? That’s literally all I can think of. Other than that, sorry man, I can’t help you. Really wish I could.

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**Author:** ![Kettle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kettle/32/1383_2.png) [@Kettle](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kettle)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/13 "2017-12-10T19:05:04Z")

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if dispersion if the issue here - lower the sight dispersion of a few guns, maybe a couple of the sight mods as well - see if that brings things to a point closer to where you think they should be in terms of realism.

if that helps, suggest a PR/FR to bring that change into mainline.

iirc, the L523-DSR has 0 sight dispersion - if you still have issues using that gun, the problem may be elsewhere?

bringing a problem up is all well and good, but we’re not gonna get anywhere without actual suggestions of how something might be resolved :3

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**Author:** ![ShadowDragon8685](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@ShadowDragon8685](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ShadowDragon8685)\
**Post date:** [December 10, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/14 "2017-12-10T20:25:04Z")

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No, _that_ I don’t. No CBMs.

I still think that rifles are just ridiculously inaccurate, that it is the minimum dispersion of 45 which makes them just basically unable to hit at proper rifle ranges.

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**Author:** ![tarburst98](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/tarburst98/32/1355_2.png) [@tarburst98](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/tarburst98)\
**Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/15 "2017-12-11T03:46:00Z")

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kettle, dispersion and sight dispersion are different things. dispersion is the bullet’s tendency to veer, and sight dispersion is how well you can line the shot up.

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**Author:** ![druidniam](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/druidniam/32/1368_2.png) [@druidniam](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/druidniam)\
**Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/16 "2017-12-11T05:36:00Z")

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> [@Vehicle Mounted Turrets- Is there a point?](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/vehicle-mounted-turrets-is-there-a-point/14632/8):
>
> Wow, my entire gameplay experience with guns has been different. Handguns have been garbage except for Magnum stuff , while I’ve been straight up wrecking things with Rifles. Mods significantly improve things for me (as long as I use the right balance). Range is never a problem if you get dispersion down to the minimum and aim for me.
> 
> SMGs are fucking beast, though. I never bothered using them as Crazy Jack, but I picked one up as Noble Culver and suddenly zombies are dying left, right and center. There’s something nice about a giant freak of nature using a shield an SMG instead of his glorious natural weapons to wreak divine carnage.
> 
> Really weird…

Are you playing with Stats through Skills enabled? With Stock settings and stock stats, 10 rifles,10 marks, and a scope, and you’ll hit a barn at 20 tiles 1 out 5 times with precise aiming. With states through skills on default, you’ll hit it 4/5. If you tweaking the math away from 2.46 to anything lower, you’ll hit targets out to 50 tiles like you were standing next to them.

Kevin is actively working on an overhaul on weapons (and I think waiting on a massive stat dump from me about all the real world distances of the games default weapons and calibers), so guns won’t stay second class forever.

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**Author:** ![Vastin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/vastin/32/9912_2.png) [@Vastin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Vastin)\
**Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/17 "2017-12-11T23:20:11Z")

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if basic dispersion is the bullet’s tendency to veer due to unavoidable factors such as atmospheric conditions, then it should be far lower for heavy and/or high velocity rounds.

So a .50 sniper round should have virtually no ‘dispersion’ out to sight range as defined in the game, while a .30-08 should have relatively little, while a .22 rim-fire round fired from a short barreled pistol should have pretty much the worst (not counting shotguns shells of course, most of which are _designed_ to disperse).

Given that most vehicular turrets are designed to fire rather heavy rounds at generally high velocity, they should feature very little dispersal.

Also, why can’t we craft rifle scopes, given that we have access to high-precision lenses? That seems like a no brainer. I could see being unable to craft a really high end precision military scope - but being able to put together a basic ‘survivor scope’ that beats iron sights would be pretty straightforward methinks.

Cause the things are impossible to find. I have a current endgame survivor with an entire array of power armor suits (including the rivtech one) to choose from and a literal arsenal of 90% of the game’s firearms - but not one scope of any kind.

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/18 "2017-12-12T00:21:23Z")

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Keep searching the armories in Lab Barracks. You might find those Barrett M107A1 antimaterial rifles. They always spawn with a Rifle Scope, Muzzle Brake, and Bipod. They aren’t integrated, so they can be removed at your leisure. Which is great because the rifle is pretty underwhelming, IMO.

Second, Dispersion is based off the gun and the ammo. Atmospheric factors aren’t taken into consideration. And if I am remembering correctly, Shotguns actually could get to 0 Dispersion pretty easily…

I’m more concerned with the array of high tech stuff (like Holographic Sights, Boeing Plasma Rifle and the two Laser exclusive mods) and why they never spawn.

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**Author:** ![Mantar](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mantar/32/42_2.png) [@Mantar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mantar)\
**Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/19 "2017-12-12T20:24:05Z")

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Aren’t the laser mods supposed to only spawn in the vaults under a necropolis?

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**Author:** ![psyxypher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/psyxypher/32/11778_2.png) [@psyxypher](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/psyxypher)\
**Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/firearm-accuracy/14675/20 "2017-12-12T20:27:20Z")

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…  
Huh…  
I…didn’t know actually valuable loot was down there. Nor did I know that you could get beyond the second basement (I assumed I couldn’t get past it because it was unfinished, or didn’t spawn like with slime pits).

Is there a way to get past the second basement? If so, I might as well take another trip to my local Necropolis…

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