# Electric vehicles are no-brainers (git b85c4a930b)

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581>\
**Category:** The Drawing Board\
**Created:** [December 29, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581 "2020-12-29T15:48:33Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![GiggleGrassGatherer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/gigglegrassgatherer/32/7743_2.png) [@GiggleGrassGatherer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/GiggleGrassGatherer)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 10:35am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/21 "2020-12-30T10:35:19Z")

</div>

> [@Paul\_Blay](#):
>
> Talking about ‘current world technology’ - are there still cars driving around in CDDA powered by nuclear reactors?

Well, there are if you have Aftershock enabled. Not sure about vanilla, guess no.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paul\_Blay](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paul_blay/32/6803_2.png) [@Paul\_Blay](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paul_Blay)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 10:48am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/22 "2020-12-30T10:48:41Z")

</div>

CDDA has been in development for a while. Maybe its reflection of the ‘current’ state of affairs needs to be updated a bit. A quick google and some highly unreliable ~~calculations~~ estimations suggest that around 10% of gas stations in New England probably have a charging station for electric vehicles. People living there (especially anyone who actually owns an EV) will have a better idea of the truth.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThinkSome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@ThinkSome](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ThinkSome)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 10:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/23 "2020-12-30T10:50:15Z")

</div>

Electric vehicles aren’t supposed to be charged at “charging stations” normally. You are supposed to plug them into a normal wall socket and charge overnight. The charging stations are only for fast charging during long trips.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![zantanzuken](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/zantanzuken/32/10325_2.png) [@zantanzuken](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/zantanzuken)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 11:09am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/24 "2020-12-30T11:09:18Z")

</div>

can confirm. using the fast charging ports will eventually damage the batteries through wear and tear, where the regular charging doesnt.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paul\_Blay](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paul_blay/32/6803_2.png) [@Paul\_Blay](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paul_Blay)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 11:22am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/25 "2020-12-30T11:22:00Z")

</div>

Over here in the UK car parks often have charging points where you can charge up for however long you are parked. Plus similar schemes for parking on the street. I presume they use slow or at least not fast charging.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThinkSome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@ThinkSome](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ThinkSome)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 12:04pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/26 "2020-12-30T12:04:19Z")

</div>

CDDA EVs also have unusually low battery capacity for a 150kW motor and being shaped like a sedan, with 400L worth of trunk, 2\*40 MJ is only 22 kWh.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/27 "2020-12-30T14:50:38Z")

</div>

> (current solar panels in cata are 40 kilojoules… say per turn

Current CDDA solar panels are 50 W, that is to say, 0.050 kJ / s. Please don’t spread incorrect nonsense.

A 50 W/m^2 is about 5% efficient, which is pretty reasonable for a general purpose solar panel. Upgraded solar panels are 100 W/m^2 and 10% efficient, which is excellent. Quantum solar panels are 300 W/m^2, which is 30%, and that is a higher efficiency than any existing solar panel and isn’t even believed to be theoretically possible under our current understanding.

So yes, CDDA has some unreasonable good solar panels, but they’re a special case. Most solar panels are good but not great, and some are better.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/28 "2020-12-30T14:53:23Z")

</div>

> the radiated crash damage can be mitigated by installing shock absorbers on every vehicle tile,

Even in my tests, a shock absorber only prevented the damage to a solar panel for a 20 mph collision. At 40 mph, the protected solar panel was still destroyed. The radiated shock damage mitigation from shock absorbers is nice, but it’s also pretty limited.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThinkSome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@ThinkSome](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ThinkSome)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/29 "2020-12-30T14:58:26Z")

</div>

> **[Solar cell efficiency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency#/media/File:CellPVeff(rev200708).png)**
>
> Solar cell efficiency refers to the portion of energy in the form of sunlight that can be converted via photovoltaics into electricity by the solar cell.
> The efficiency of the solar cells used in a photovoltaic system, in combination with latitude and climate, determines the annual energy output of the system. For example, a solar panel with 20% efficiency and an area of 1 m2 will produce 200 kWh/yr at Standard Test Conditions if exposed to the Standard Test Condition solar irradiance value o...

47% efficiency is possible nowadays, under laboratory conditions and with $$$.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThinkSome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@ThinkSome](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ThinkSome)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/30 "2020-12-30T17:32:31Z")

</div>

+186W with stereo on while raining at 17h20. So +236W at panels.

I noticed that stereo does +30 joy, while mp3 player only +20.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/31 "2020-12-30T17:45:25Z")

</div>

So noted, and thank you for that research! I don’t feel any need to up the power output of quantum solar panels, but it’s good to know that they’re now in the range of “practically possible if you had more money than sense” instead of “you can’t do this you know”.

I’m reasonably happy with the vehicle physics side right now: vehicles moving at a steady cruise speed are slowed down each second by air drag and rolling resistance, and then spend motive energy to accelerate back to their cruise speed. The biggest issue right now is that engines produce a constant amount of power and use infinite perfect gears to divide that power into torque and RPM, while in real life gears are limited and imperfect and engine torque is (relatively) constant and overall output power increases as engine RPM increases. Fixing that would be really complicated; to a first pass, it wouldn’t be crazy to reduce the output power of engines/motors used for motive power to 70% of the current values and reducing efficiency likewise. But I don’t think Paul\_Blay’s complaints are going to be addressed by reducing solar vehicle range to 70% of its current values.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![PALU](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e56c9b/32.png) [@PALU](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/PALU)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/32 "2020-12-30T18:37:47Z")

</div>

I’m less concerned about range than I am about damage. Solar panels can’t be repaired without spare parts taken from solar panels, which means that you’re eventually going to run out (the world is fairly large, but you’re going to deplete the supply within an ever increasing radius). When that damage comes from an occasional hit to the roof it’s not a big deal, but if you’re going to wear them away every time you’re going somewhere new it is.  
This may mean a complete conversion to swappable storage batteries, but they can’t be repaired without cannibalization either.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paul\_Blay](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paul_blay/32/6803_2.png) [@Paul\_Blay](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paul_Blay)\
**Post date:** [December 30, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/33 "2020-12-30T20:13:54Z")

</div>

> [@mlangsdorf](#):
>
> But I don’t think Paul\_Blay’s complaints are going to be addressed by reducing solar vehicle range to 70% of its current values.

It’s not so much a complaint as an observation. I don’t know why real solar electric cars can’t do the stuff that ones in CDDA seem to (although I was under some level of misinformation).

Just now I was in my RV with the fridge on and basically just boiling water to refill a 60L tank bit by bit. The battery level actually went steadily up with four standard solar panels in the sunlight on a clear spring day. Is that realistic? I honestly don’t know.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![mlangsdorf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mlangsdorf/32/2462_2.png) [@mlangsdorf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/mlangsdorf)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 12:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/34 "2020-12-31T00:32:39Z")

</div>

No, that’s not realistic. The issue is that although the game has definitions for what 1 battery charge is, no one has gone back and rationalized all the welding and cooking costs. For instance, the energy it takes to fully boil 1 unit (0.25L or 250 g) of water should be:  
`250 g * ( 80 C * 1 cal / C-g + 540 cal / g ) * 4.184 J / cal * 1 battery / 1000 J` or **649** battery charges.  
In game, it’s currently like 2 charges.

4 solar panels produce produce 720 battery charges per hour, so if you were boiling than tank at 0.25L per hour, the panels should recharge the battery. If you were doing it a little more quickly, the battery would drain like crazy.

That’s not a flaw in the vehicle model, that’s a problem with the crafting recipes. =/

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![zantanzuken](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/zantanzuken/32/10325_2.png) [@zantanzuken](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/zantanzuken)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/35 "2020-12-31T00:57:06Z")

</div>

i said I was guesstimating! i knew almost- how much a single solar panel gives but not exactly.

nowhere that i know of (i didn’t check the files) does it say how much a solar panel actually gives… mabye that should be added to the wiki or item browser?

i will admit that i am not an electrician nor do i know that much about power and the distribution of such (other than basics.)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/36 "2020-12-31T02:14:22Z")

</div>

> [@zantanzuken](#):
>
> nowhere that i know of (i didn’t check the files) does it say how much a solar panel actually gives…

Like with all vehicle tiles that use or produce power, it says so when you try to install it:  
 ![Solar power output as seen in the installation menu.](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/cataclysmdda/original/2X/4/4a47e89efd3c9e0dd959f19e84b43df8e0a21718.png)

* * *

As for solar efficiency, I was going to state that there are really good ones out there already and just recenty [there was a new record set for perovskite/silicon tandem solar cells](https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-just-beat-another-solar-cell-efficiency-world-record), but it looks like I’m late to that party…

* * *

> [@zantanzuken](#):
>
> does weather currently affect cata solar panels?

To my knowledge; yes. At least it did in older versions, where I had problems to drive for long distances during the winter as it was overcast more often.

> [@Paul\_Blay](#):
>
> […] although there is still the practical question of how CDDA solar cars seem to be able to do what RL cars can’t.

Well, given that [Bertrand Piccard even flew around the world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Impulse) (although not in one go), I guess it would be possible, although really expensive and not really worth the effort (as you could usually recharge your battery relatively easy).

Some more research later… there’s the [Lightyear One](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One), a real solar car which has 5 m² of solar cells all around its body and it’s expected to charge the battery to offer an additional 50 km per day (with a range of 725 km, not sure if the 50 km are included in that or not).  
While I’m not able to find the exact capacity of the batteries or power output of the solar panels, the homepage of the car states it uses 83 Wh/km and 1 hour of solar charging adds 12 km. So, that’s close to 1 kWh per hour, or 1 kW output (which would mean the solar panels/cells have an efficiency of 20%).

Now to answer your base question: Why does it look like to be so much more efficient in the game than in real life, even if - based on the numbers - it clearly isn’t? The answer: You don’t drive that many kilometers (and not as fast) in the game compared to real life.  
For a “city car” that you use for short trips to your local store and home, it would clearly add enough charge every day to keep it going endlessly. But it wouldn’t make much sense to use solar cells on it, as you can just plug it in when you get back home. The efficency for perfectly mounted solar cells is much higher than on a car roof, so you’re better off by installing these cells on your home’s roof and charge a battery that charges up your car when you get home (and you can use the stored/leftover energy for other stuff too).

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![zantanzuken](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/zantanzuken/32/10325_2.png) [@zantanzuken](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/zantanzuken)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 2:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/37 "2020-12-31T02:34:18Z")

</div>

oh~ so it does show it there…

… how did i never notice that?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 2:41am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/38 "2020-12-31T02:41:41Z")

</div>

> [@zantanzuken](#):
>
> … how did i never notice that?

Well, maybe you need some glasses 😃 ?

Just kidding. Given that I’ve read the “reclining seat” as “recycling seat” **for years** and never understood why I would want to install a recycled seat (which takes a normal seat) with less storage and durability into a car - even though there’s clearly a description about it… well… stuff happens…

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Paul\_Blay](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/paul_blay/32/6803_2.png) [@Paul\_Blay](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Paul_Blay)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 7:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/39 "2020-12-31T07:51:39Z")

</div>

> [@mlangsdorf](#):
>
> That’s not a flaw in the vehicle model, that’s a problem with the crafting recipes. =/

Woof. And there are a whole ton of those. It would probably be easier if it was a flaw in the vehicle model.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ThinkSome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@ThinkSome](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ThinkSome)\
**Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 8:00am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581/40 "2020-12-31T08:00:21Z")

</div>

Ah yes, I was about to complain that my headlamp uses more power than a hotplate…

[Previous page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581.md?page=1)

[Next page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/electric-vehicles-are-no-brainers-git-b85c4a930b/25581.md?page=3)