# Do you guys prefer Bionics or Mutations?

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [August 7, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028 "2014-08-07T23:24:53Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/21 "2014-08-09T02:07:04Z")

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> [@Vanigo](#):
>
> [quote=“Nathan\_, post:15, topic:7028”]As far as the mutations go, I think alpha is probably too much compared to everyone else, despite its cost. its post threshold stuff is absurd(permenant +7 to all stats if you pick the base stats that can’t be purified away while all the “negatives” can be).[/quote]It’s not quite that good. Instead of +7, it sets your stats to 15, so any extra points you put in them at chargen stop being useful. The actual +7 mutations are much better (except that you can’t get more than two of them).

Prime stats also don’t bother recording your original levels, nor do I regard that as a bug. You get into shape, sure, but then you’ve got to stay in shape. (Anyone got the base stat above 15? I’m willing to give it another step if you’re above 15 already.)

+7 mutations are intentionally split between different post-threshold categories. You want to be a high-stat ubermensch, should’ve taken Alpha. 😉

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**Author:** ![Vanigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/45deac/32.png) [@Vanigo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Vanigo)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/22 "2014-08-09T02:22:05Z")

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[quote=“KA101, post:21, topic:7028”]Prime stats also don’t bother recording your original levels, nor do I regard that as a bug. You get into shape, sure, but then you’ve got to stay in shape. (Anyone got the base stat above 15? I’m willing to give it another step if you’re above 15 already.)[/quote]Really? What can lower it?

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**Author:** ![Nathan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nathan](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Nathan)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/23 "2014-08-09T02:24:51Z")

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> [@Vanigo](#):
>
> It’s not quite that good. Instead of +7, it sets your stats to 15, so any extra points you put in them at chargen stop being useful.

yeah, base stats, now if you’re lower than 7 you only get 11 in that category, but on the other hand it means that you could also tank perception down to 4, and get it up to 11 which covers for survivor mask encumbrance and puts you at 10 perception if you really want to get minmaxy with your character.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/24 "2014-08-09T02:27:41Z")

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> [@Vanigo](#):
>
> [quote=“KA101, post:21, topic:7028”]Prime stats also don’t bother recording your original levels, nor do I regard that as a bug. You get into shape, sure, but then you’ve got to stay in shape. (Anyone got the base stat above 15? I’m willing to give it another step if you’re above 15 already.)[/quote]Really? What can lower it?

The Prime X mutations should be vulnerable to purifier. (If not, that’s a bug.) Theoretically some other mutation might be able to cancel 'em out too.

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**Author:** ![Nathan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nathan](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Nathan)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/25 "2014-08-09T02:34:02Z")

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> [@KA101](#):
>
> [quote=“Vanigo, post:22, topic:7028”][quote=“KA101, post:21, topic:7028”]Prime stats also don’t bother recording your original levels, nor do I regard that as a bug. You get into shape, sure, but then you’ve got to stay in shape. (Anyone got the base stat above 15? I’m willing to give it another step if you’re above 15 already.)[/quote]Really? What can lower it?

The Prime X mutations should be vulnerable to purifier. (If not, that’s a bug.) Theoretically some other mutation might be able to cancel 'em out too.[/quote]

then thats a bug(as of 0.A, or extremely good luck), I’ve never removed those with regular purifier. maybe serum would do the job.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/26 "2014-08-09T04:27:57Z")

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> [@Nathan\_](#):
>
> [quote=“KA101, post:24, topic:7028”][quote=“Vanigo, post:22, topic:7028”][quote=“KA101, post:21, topic:7028”]Prime stats also don’t bother recording your original levels, nor do I regard that as a bug. You get into shape, sure, but then you’ve got to stay in shape. (Anyone got the base stat above 15? I’m willing to give it another step if you’re above 15 already.)[/quote]Really? What can lower it?

The Prime X mutations should be vulnerable to purifier. (If not, that’s a bug.) Theoretically some other mutation might be able to cancel 'em out too.[/quote]

then thats a bug(as of 0.A, or extremely good luck), I’ve never removed those with regular purifier. maybe serum would do the job.[/quote]

Should be fixed shortly, then. And your little minmaxing too!

KA101 cackles

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**Author:** ![Terthna](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/terthna/32/305_2.png) [@Terthna](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Terthna)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/27 "2014-08-09T04:32:03Z")

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> [@KA101](#):
>
> Paws are going to stay incompatible with powered armor. It’s built for humans, not human-sized cats. Fusion blaster arm needs buffed before I make it incompatible with tentacles/arm mutations, as it’s Lousy enough as is that nobody seems to take it.

Speaking of certain Bionics being incompatible with certain Mutations, how far are you intending to take the concept? For example, I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned as a possibility yet, but the Alloy Plating Bionics seem like they would be incompatible with pretty much any Mutation that involves the skin.

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**Author:** ![KA101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/278dde/32.png) [@KA101](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KA101)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/28 "2014-08-09T04:51:53Z")

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> [@Terthna](#):
>
> [quote=“KA101, post:4, topic:7028”]Paws are going to stay incompatible with powered armor. It’s built for humans, not human-sized cats. Fusion blaster arm needs buffed before I make it incompatible with tentacles/arm mutations, as it’s Lousy enough as is that nobody seems to take it.

Speaking of certain Bionics being incompatible with certain Mutations, how far are you intending to take the concept? For example, I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned as a possibility yet, but the Alloy Plating Bionics seem like they would be incompatible with pretty much any Mutation that involves the skin.[/quote]

I’m generally content with the current coexistence. Incompatibility will require some amount of infrastructure, and more to the point would either be player-friendly if incompatible mutations simply didn’t happen, or very unfriendly if they did.

Taking the Alloy Plating for example, let’s say someone installed 'em and then found out about feline mutagen. Wants to become a cat and cooks up a pile of serums. Injects and the roll comes up fur.

Options:

1. No fur, you’re metal. Failure message comes up and the mutation is discarded.

2. Metal trumps fur, with intense & constant pain and one-time HP damage as you grow an epidermal layer and fur only to have it encased in the armor.

3. Fur trumps metal with pain and HP damage as the body regrows an epidermal layer and ejects the plating. Should end up with a pile of (damaged?) superalloy plates at your feet.

4. Fur coexists with metal, perhaps growing around the plates and absorbing them as an endoskeleton of some kind. More or less the current situation.

(This is a pretty straightforward example, FWIW.)

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**Author:** ![Terthna](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/terthna/32/305_2.png) [@Terthna](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Terthna)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/29 "2014-08-09T05:14:17Z")

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[quote=“KA101, post:28, topic:7028”]I’m generally content with the current coexistence. Incompatibility will require some amount of infrastructure, and more to the point would either be player-friendly if incompatible mutations simply didn’t happen, or very unfriendly if they did.

Taking the Alloy Plating for example, let’s say someone installed 'em and then found out about feline mutagen. Wants to become a cat and cooks up a pile of serums. Injects and the roll comes up fur.

Options:

1. No fur, you’re metal. Failure message comes up and the mutation is discarded.

2. Metal trumps fur, with intense & constant pain and one-time HP damage as you grow an epidermal layer and fur only to have it encased in the armor.

3. Fur trumps metal with pain and HP damage as the body regrows an epidermal layer and ejects the plating. Should end up with a pile of (damaged?) superalloy plates at your feet.

4. Fur coexists with metal, perhaps growing around the plates and absorbing them as an endoskeleton of some kind. More or less the current situation.

(This is a pretty straightforward example, FWIW.)[/quote]

Personally I’d be happy with option #1, as the whole point with that Bionic is you replace you skin with armor, and you therefore have no skin that could accept mutations. That said, I could also see the argument for how it currently works, i.e. option #4, though I do think in that case there should be some in-game lore that alludes that being how it works; maybe some sort of record or recording of a Lab experiment where the test subject is put into just that sort of situation. Because, as it stands, it just feels a little weird to have skin that is both metal and bark at the same time.

Ah well, not that it matters to me much; I tend to avoid that particular set of Bionics anyways because of how painful and downright disturbing replacing your skin with metal sounds, despite it basically being free armor with no downsides.

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**Author:** ![Perigrin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/perigrin/32/262_2.png) [@Perigrin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Perigrin)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/30 "2014-08-09T15:23:20Z")

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i use an unholy mixture of both, which is how some of my characters last so long and kill so much.  
i

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**Author:** ![Arek\_PL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b77776/32.png) [@Arek\_PL](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Arek_PL)\
**Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/31 "2014-08-09T16:44:28Z")

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well i use both things too i dring some mutagen and now i have smart scales ghils and pheloderm (scales and pheloderm can’t be created at one time you need to use mutagen if you want this)

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**Author:** ![Zipo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/fbc32d/32.png) [@Zipo](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zipo)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/32 "2014-08-11T03:43:00Z")

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Bionics just because they’re not as risky as mutations. The intergrated toolkit and probability travel are life savers among others.

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**Author:** ![Logrin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/logrin/32/209_2.png) [@Logrin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Logrin)\
**Post date:** [August 11, 2014, 6:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/do-you-guys-prefer-bionics-or-mutations/7028/33 "2014-08-11T06:21:16Z")

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I tend to mix and match but generally build my characters around a mutation arc. For instance my cannibal Christopher ‘Criss-Cross’ Crosby is a full on Medical Mutation pain junkie. When I find a survivor I help them, right up until his ‘mood swing’ trait triggers for the worse.

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