Derail re: forking from "Coolthulu's patches"

[Adventurer]

[quote=“Adventurer, post:1, topic:14133”]How about making this the mainline and just cutting Kevin out of the equation? His backwards thinking is going to hold back the game forever at this rate.

Coolthulu (or anyone else) is free to fork the project and start making releases if they want. It’s simply a matter of having the necessary skills and commiting the time necessary to make it happen.
That has roughly nothing to do with, “cutting Kevin out of the equation” though, I’m going to continue developing the project for the foreseeable future.[/quote]

Sure it does. People will start using the superior version, which is Coolthulhu’s. And then PRs can start going to his github rather than the CleverRaven one, because then they won’t have to deal with you.

[darktoes]

[quote=“Kevin Granade, post:3, topic:14133”][quote=“Adventurer, post:1, topic:14133”]How about making this the mainline and just cutting Kevin out of the equation? His backwards thinking is going to hold back the game forever at this rate.

Coolthulu (or anyone else) is free to fork the project and start making releases if they want. It’s simply a matter of having the necessary skills and commiting the time necessary to make it happen.
That has roughly nothing to do with, “cutting Kevin out of the equation” though, I’m going to continue developing the project for the foreseeable future.[/quote]
Sure it does. People will start using the superior version, which is Coolthulhu’s. And then PRs can start going to his github rather than the CleverRaven one, because then they won’t have to deal with you.[/quote]
It’s much easier to maintain a small patch for the mainline than to attempt to maintain an entirely new line away from one of the lead developers, and that’s assuming that all the other lead developers are willing to abandon the first said lead developer because of “Backwards thinking” in the form of trying to change and develop new mechanics. I think you need to remember that the game is very much in development, so lots of things are being worked on and changed.

Out of curiosity and considering how much discussion and backlash there has been over the painkiller use with CBM feature, how feasible would it be to set up a voting system on one of the different websites used for Cataclysm? Here, Reddit, even the main download website should be able to host some sort of vote so when a new feature moves into development or is considered for changes everyone could vote on how it should be implemented. I know some discussion takes place but most of it is excessively wordy, unpleasantly phrased and scattered across all the different forums.
If we had one simple system for deciding things, wouldn’t that make it substantially easier to see what the community wants? I realise it’s not nearly that simple, but could that be a step in the right direction?

EDIT: After further reading I understand more that some of the controversial changes weren’t due to matters of preference so much as an attempt to overhaul things that need it, so my voting idea might not be as useful, but it could still serve to prevent some of the arguments and nonsense that crop up from these things with changes like the bionics. I understand that it’s an early attempt at adding a new mechanic, but it would be good to see whether the community actually wants said mechanic implemented the way currently intended, if at all.

[kevin.granade]

how feasible would it be to set up a voting system on one of the different websites used for Cataclysm?

Very feasible, it was done, it didn’t get much attention, it was abandoned. The social aspects are a lot harder than just standing up a website to tally them.
More importantly, the project is not a democracy.
The method for users to influence development is via debate. This is intentional, not due to laziness. Debate sidesteps all the nasty problems around deciding who gets to vote and enforcing that everyone gets the right amount of voting power etc. and validates that people actually know what they’re asking for.

[Greiger]

Ah yes, so you are choosing the ‘it’s my way or the highway’ approach. Last I checked this was a community project. Like how you recently shut down dangernoodle’s blocking rework that was very clear on their goal, because after you asked for an example, they provided a very clear and good one, and then got understandably annoyed when you kept asking for more specific examples when the general example they gave was very strong and easily extrapolated into any specific case you could ask for. You responded, after a bit of back and fourth to unilaterally ban dangernoodle from the project, and just ignore it when yer called out on it? https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/21503

You have done good work in the past it’s true, but you seem to be letting your power go to your head. Don’t you want this to be back in the old days, when people cooperated? When one person just restructuring a few jsons had as much say as anyone else?

[kevin.granade]

@Alec White no imge posts please.

[Alec_White]

@Alec White no imge posts please.

You could have deleted the pic, no need to delete the whole post. It would have been nicer of you.
And anyway didn’t know we can’t post single images.

You have done good work in the past it’s true, but you seem to be letting your power go to your head. Don’t you want this to be back in the old days, when people cooperated? When one person just restructuring a few jsons had as much say as anyone else?

As I said in the deleted post:
You only need a single person committed enough to fork off into the sunset. This is an open source game, and that’s why I’m thankful of Coolthulhu.

[kevin.granade]

You could have deleted the pic, no need to delete the whole post.

We had a ridiculously huge controversy a while back about editing posts that broke rules, as a result I don’t edit posts and instead just delete them.

[Litppunk]

To whom it may concern:

Kevin knows best. If you think he doesn’t, debate with him civily until you realize why kevin is right. Throwing accusations around that someone is a lesser person is a low tactic that only makes you seem immature and discredits any suggestions and ideas you may have. I have debated with him several times, and can credit myself no wins to date. Much to my frustration, though I’m pretty sure I have gotten a few suggestions through.

Kevin and the other devs are all human and capable of error, but are quick to correct any bug or mistakes. The only income any devs make from CDDA are through the completion of Github bounties, and Kevin nets $0 from any that.

ALL the devs putting work into CDDA do it out of passion and love of the game. Please keep this in mind when commenting on THEIR work, and do not disrespect their effort, even when you disagree with how they have spent it.

Thanks,
Annoyed with complaints.

P.S. please keep it on topic as best you can.

[Alec_White]

[quote=“Litppunk, post:11, topic:14133”]To whom it may concern:

Kevin knows best. If you think he doesn’t, debate with him civily until you realize why kevin is right. Throwing accusations around that someone is a lesser person is a low tactic that only makes you seem immature and discredits any suggestions and ideas you may have. I have debated with him several times, and can credit myself no wins to date. Much to my frustration, though I’m pretty sure I have gotten a few suggestions through.

Kevin and the other devs are all human and capable of error, but are quick to correct any bug or mistakes. The only income any devs make from CDDA are through the completion of Github bounties, and Kevin nets $0 from any that.

ALL the devs putting work into CDDA do it out of passion and love of the game. Please keep this in mind when commenting on THEIR work, and do not disrespect their effort, even when you disagree with how they have spent it.

Thanks,
Annoyed with complaints.

P.S. please keep it on topic as best you can.[/quote]

Ironic enough, your post is pure off-topic and will probably attract replies such as this one. If you have a problem is better to make a thread about it, instead of dumping your stuff and ending it with a “please keep it on topic as best you can.”, so that way it will not receive any replies from the people that has a different opinion, hence keeping your totally off topic post in the thread without any repercussion.
Thanks,
Annoyed by off-topic.

And speaking about on-topic stuff, Coolthulhu how often do you update this fork with cleverraven?
I think I heard you saying on IRC that it was every time there was something important, and I’m wondering if you are still doing it, or have you change the frequency.

[trelatyraelis]

I don’t see what’s the point of this thread. If Coolthulu wants simply make his own fork (as he basically has done except for the actual splitting and renaming, considering the fact that his releases sync with DDA’s main repo with his additions) then he’ll do it. Hell, he did it in the first place because he wanted to have a version that better suited his tastes. That’s what forking is all about.
So please don’t try to generate drama and shit-talk the lead of the project for no real reason, because while I may agree that the direction DDA is going is inherently flawed then all you need to do is just
fork
the thing
no need to insult anyone
just fork it
And even then, since it would only be COolthulu’s idea, I find resorting to sarcasm so thick you could cut it with a stick pretty childish. Especially when Kevin already told everyone that DDA’s his own thing and not a democracy.
This is literally the same thing as willingly going on a bumpy path and complaining about the bumps to the rider when you could actually just get off the road and oh what do you know there’s a perfectly fine un-bumpy path right there oh goodness me how did I not spot this sooner.

[Valiant]

Kevin knows best. If you think he doesn’t, debate with him civily until you realize why kevin is right.

I know of at least one example when Kevin admitted he was wrong: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/20458.

[Zhilkin]

[quote=“Litppunk, post:11, topic:14133”]Kevin knows best. If you think he doesn’t, debate with him civily until you realize why kevin is right.

I know of at least one example when Kevin admitted he was wrong: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/20458.[/quote]
Probably he was posting under the influence

[Litppunk]

Ironic enough, your post is pure off-topic and will probably attract replies such as this one. If you have a problem is better to make a thread about it, instead of dumping your stuff and ending it with a "please keep it on topic as best you can."

I know. I knew it when I posted, but I did so anyways under the useless hope that doing so would help remind others not to do the same… the ‘dumping it’ was unintentional side effect. Should have thrown in a Please PM responses now that I think about it. It got forked so thanks for that, and my bad

[quote=“Valiant, post:14, topic:14133”][quote=“Litppunk, post:11, topic:14133”]Kevin knows best. If you think he doesn’t, debate with him civily until you realize why kevin is right.

I know of at least one example when Kevin admitted he was wrong: https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/20458.[/quote]
Probably he was posting under the influence :D[/quote]

Ah, good to know SOMEONE has caught him making a mistake at SOME point. I was beginning to think he was an Amazon bot. X-files theme song

[TheKobold]

Bots make mistakes… he still could be one.

[Litppunk]

This is true… and the rarity of mistakes does make it ponder-able.

[RedPine]

How about making this the mainline and just cutting Kevin out of the equation? His backwards thinking is going to hold back the game forever at this rate.

This post is necessary. Kevin does a lot of behind the scenes work that doesn’t get appreciated, not to mention all his past work and extensive experience. Just by being around to answer random coding questions makes Kevin valuable in ways that can’t be measured. There is a good reason the long time developers have stuck together for so long through all their disagreements.

I also disagree with his recent balance attempts, but CDDA is very moddable so we can change CDDA to fit our personal tastes. Coolthulu’s fork is sufficient - that’s the whole point of a fork, after all. Besides, aim is getting another overhaul soon ™ that looks quite decent so far - you wouldn’t know it from the forum, but a compromise IS being reached.

[Litppunk]

[quote=“Adventurer, post:1, topic:14133”]How about making this the mainline and just cutting Kevin out of the equation? His backwards thinking is going to hold back the game forever at this rate.

This post is necessary. Kevin does a lot of behind the scenes work that doesn’t get appreciated, not to mention all his past work and extensive experience. Just by being around to answer random coding questions makes Kevin valuable in ways that can’t be measured. There is a good reason the long time developers have stuck together for so long through all their disagreements.

I also disagree with his recent balance attempts, but CDDA is very moddable so we can change CDDA to fit our personal tastes. Coolthulu’s fork is sufficient - that’s the whole point of a fork, after all. Besides, aim is getting another overhaul soon ™ that looks quite decent so far - you wouldn’t know it from the forum, but a compromise IS being reached.[/quote]

well said. +1

[Eliijahh]

+1

Let’s remember how difficult it is to work on a project remotely. You gotta have someone that makes the final calls, and people will be unhappy sometimes. The fact that there is an individual person like Kevin that brings everything together is invaluable to this project, and it is potentially the only reason why this is not abandonware. I’d suggest the community to envision themselves as influencers, more than decision makers, if they want to really help shaping the game.

Said that, there is always margin for improvements. This kind of posts should be perceived as useful feedback that there may be potentially something wrong. Perhaps there could be better ways to communicate with devs and the community.

@Kevin, have you ever thought of picking someone from your team, someone charismatic, polite and well received by the community, to be the main point of interaction with github devs and the forums? It’d be a shame that the amazing work you guys are doing is badly received due to miscommunication? (let’s just focus one second and let’s remember how the game was before those guys came around. Dynamic spawn, and I said it all)

[Litppunk]

You might be surprised how often that question has been asked. The answer comes back more or less, nothing official.
I must Try HARDER!

[kevin.granade]

@Kevin, have you ever thought of picking someone from your team, someone charismatic, polite and well received by the community, to be the main point of interaction with github devs and the forums? It’d be a shame that the amazing work you guys are doing is badly received due to miscommunication? (let’s just focus one second and let’s remember how the game was before those guys came around. Dynamic spawn, and I said it all)

A number of people do this in an ad-hoc way already, contributors post on the forums or elsewhere* about their coding or modding efforts, and a number of developers and users move information between github and elsewhere.

To more directly answer your question though, no I haven’t considered that option. Offhand I can’t think of anyone that meets your criteria as well as my own, which would require them to have a general understanding of how development works. If someone thinks they do want to fill that role, just start doing it.

• the places I know of are r/cataclysmdda, #cataclysmdda on freenode and a cataclysmdda discord server (https://discord.gg/DPxUcX7)