### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [June 15, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/21 "2018-06-15T20:58:52Z")
It’s ridiculous to characterize this as a nerf to spears in general, it’s a handful (I think only the two brought up so far?) that are very cheap and easy to make that are and have always been intended to be temporary tools for use until the player can acquire “real” weapons.
> [@John\_Candlebury](#):
>
> I think the overall change is good, but the spear just breaks down to fast. If it could last for twice the hits it would be great.
I have zero problem backing off on the rate of breakage.
> [@John\_Candlebury](#):
>
> I also feel its going to simply result in people carrying around more spears rather, with little meaningful game play changes.
That is a change, either that or starting a fight with a spear and switching to a different backup weapon.
> [@mlangsdorf](#):
>
> Did your research cover them and if so, how did it account for them versus the “fragile spears” concept?
No one is advocating making all spears fragile, just the two that are literally knives taped to poles.
> [@Coolthulhu](#):
>
> Damage nerfs, speed nerfs, crafting difficulty - all fine for balancing an early weapon.
I’d be perfectly fine to either remove the knife spear altogether or replace it with a fab 2 version that’s not fragile. Neither damage nor speed nerfs either make sense or address the problem.
---
### Author:  [@Wayticus](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Wayticus)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 12:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/22 "2018-06-16T00:20:50Z")
What is the problem that is trying to be addressed? I read over the github, but didn’t see, but I’m still new.
Having it fragile makes sense, but there should be a better version of it that requires a cutting tool to make a groove in the stick to secure the point, like the stone spear.
I have not played with that update yet, but does it just break, or does it break down? Do you get your stick and spike, back? That would make sense seeing as if it broke from being fragile it would most likely be the attaching mechanism, so your stick and spike would be okay. Course you could also just tighten your string when it loosens, adding longer life to the spear and more realism and tedium.
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### Author:  [@Coolthulhu](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Coolthulhu)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/23 "2018-06-16T02:15:05Z")
> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> I’d be perfectly fine to either remove the knife spear altogether or replace it with a fab 2 version that’s not fragile. Neither damage nor speed nerfs either make sense or address the problem.
If actual, meaningful nerfs can’t address the problem, the problem doesn’t exist.
Fab 2 wouldn’t change anything, it’s trivial to get. I was thinking more like making it require an actual knife (or at least scissors/screwdriver) as opposed to a piece of generic scrap hammered (with a rock) into a rough spike.
As long as you can mass-craft the spears, changes to fragility are just placebo - really annoying placebo.
---
### Author:  [@Shard](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Shard)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 11:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/24 "2018-06-16T11:27:32Z")
So I actually tested this, and it is even worse than I thought, in several cases it took two spears to kill a single zombie, and several times my spear was damaged three times in three hits. To kill two zombies required three spears in four of my five tests of it. This flag makes any weapon it is applied to essentially worthless for anything except crafting exp.
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### Author:  [@BorkBorkGoesTheCode](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/BorkBorkGoesTheCode)
#### Post date: [June 16, 2018, 12:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/25 "2018-06-16T12:42:28Z")
NotFuji is fixing FRAGILE\_MELEE break rates
>
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### Author:  [@dissociativity](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/dissociativity)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/26 "2018-06-17T11:58:54Z")
seriously though, there is no reason to upset about a crudely hammered piece of metal duct-taped or tied with a string to a crudely carved stick or plank being fragile.
And it’s very easy to just be patient and get a wooden spear anyway.
If anything the copper spear is a little underpowered by the time you get it.
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### Author:  [@supernova](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/supernova)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/27 "2018-06-17T18:39:57Z")
tl;dr: Difficulty levels would make this non-controversial IMO.
Hello! My first post lurking here and on the reddit for a bit. I was one of those tuned into CDDA by the Rock Paper Shotgun post back in Nov 16’ and have been watching youtubes to learn how to sorta play this game. It is interesting to me what sort of a divisive subject this has turned out to be. Taking a step back I think it is both a necessary nerf for the subset of players seeking challenge and at the same time a unnecessary nerf for those of us like myself that still end up dying a bunch.
Given the game is in open development by people developing a game for themselves and others, it makes sense that the nerf would be implemented. I do hope that in some future milestone there will be difficulty tiers implemented where Hard \<-\> Hurt Me Badly \<-\> Murphy’s Law Hates You could be picked at the game start by newbs like myself that are not great at surviving on default settings as they were a year ago, for those that do not know how the lore on what Zombie Evolution rate means and just wants to trust the devs to make a good call for a fun intro start into this weird deep well of a game.
Maybe on Hard the Knife Spear worked as before, maybe on H.M.B. it would break in half the hits, and M.L.H.Y. it would break in 4-8 as it has in my experience with the FRAGILE\_MELEE attribute.
Anyways, thanks for making something really weird, unforgiving and true unto itself.
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### Author:  [@Fuscosco](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Fuscosco)
#### Post date: [June 17, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/28 "2018-06-17T20:48:21Z")
game is completely customizable for difficulty.
want less zeds? lower it.
want more npcs? raise it.
want no cities?
want more enemy health
any difficulty setting would only be a series of suggested settings that would force contributors to design around them; resulting in clutter and work.
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### Author:  [@Aluminumfoil](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Aluminumfoil)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2018, 7:02am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/29 "2018-06-18T07:02:34Z")
Knife spear should probably be envisioned as having used the knife to carve down the sturdy stick at one end, so that the knife handle is seated properly on a flat surface with a backstop. And it should take about 10 minutes, not 6 turns. As described, and taking only 6 turns to make, it’s described **as** garbage, so it should **be** garbage… but the difference between garbage and a lethal weapon that would make any stone age hunter cry with joy is a few minutes of whittling and some common sense.
So, I would say change _This is a simple wood pole made much more deadly by the blade tied to it._ to _This is a simple wooden pole made much more deadly by the blade affixed to one end._ change crafting time from 6 turns to 10 minutes, and !buffs!
Edit: and remove the 2x4 from the material list, that’s just silly, even allowing for 2x4s as a stand-in for any and all planks.
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### Author:  [@Mecares](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mecares)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/30 "2018-06-18T07:35:59Z")
The name itself is highly misleading the crafting recipe does not even accept a decent knife, but just a spike which is literally a piece of metal that got beaten a few times with a rock. That is not a knife spear it is a spikey stick.
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### Author:  [@JT1](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/JT1)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2018, 10:30am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/31 "2018-06-18T10:30:35Z")
I dunno how people feel about meme-like posts, but [the first thing that came to mind](http://www.amazingsuperpowers.com/hc/04292010/)…
I’m all for a knife-spear nerf. Actually I was shocked when I crafted one the first time and actively avoid them as being a little too cheaty. If they’re bumped down to the 9 to 10-pierce range, I might feel a little more comfortable with them. So I’m “Pro Nerd”! And anti-break.
(Incidentally, I only learned of the reach-stab a few nights ago, so there’s also that…)
---
### Author:  [@Arche\_Zwei](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Arche_Zwei)
#### Post date: [June 18, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/32 "2018-06-18T22:27:38Z")
Back in the old days I used to be nearly invincible with an awl pike.
But that was only after my death mobile got a forge.
So I could craft another one if I had lost the other on a scavenge run with death mobile somewhere.
Was actually suprised when I restarted the game. At the high crafting requirements for this weapon.
[http://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda\_wiki/index.php?title=Awl\_pike](http://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Awl_pike)
So I have never bothered with knife spears.
I went straight to fix a car (Internal Toolset CBM) and use that instead.
But all that took a few solid years of daily play and learn.
Like things on how to use an Armored ACBN suit to shield you from as much detrimental Environment effects as possible.
And then, I never finished a dungeon. Always played overworld pretty much.
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### Author:  [@VictorSegall](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/VictorSegall)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/33 "2018-06-19T01:25:28Z")
@Gunpowder17, in your question you inadvertently nailed the stance I’ve taken in the PR threads. I’m on both sides. Pro nerd, but anti-nerf.
The current PR that was merged is modded out of my game on principle. It doesn’t deserve to be in yet. It should be in. FRAGILE\_MELEE doesn’t work well enough, yet. There’s no progression in recipes for comparable non-fragile weapons. I showed how the recipes part can be done. Until something like Fuji’s take on the FRAGILE\_MELEE flag goes in, the flag isn’t touching my spears and pikes.
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### Author:  [@Submarine](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Submarine)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/34 "2018-06-21T11:30:29Z")
Not sure if its possible but what if when you use the reach attack with a spear the weapon is more prone to damage?
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### Author:  [@BorkBorkGoesTheCode](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/BorkBorkGoesTheCode)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/35 "2018-06-27T18:53:41Z")
>
merged
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### Author:  [@jimbogee](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/jimbogee)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/36 "2018-06-27T22:29:18Z")
I voted anti nerf as I am always against nerfing. I get that they might be trying to show that its a crudely built weapon and it wouldnt last as long as a weapon built with a welder or something but as I have stated many many times before too much realism breaks a game. They need to be really careful.
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### Author:  [@DeWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DeWolf)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2018, 11:37pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/37 "2018-06-27T23:37:06Z")
There is only one exception and that is if you disassemble a steak knife you get a spike which can then be the blade in the knife spear.
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### Author:  [@redxlaser15](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/redxlaser15)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/38 "2018-06-28T01:57:47Z")
I’d just duct tape the steak knife directly to the stick instead. Then the knife is properly reusable! (Unless it gets too bent of course)
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### Author:  [@DeWolf](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DeWolf)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 2:24am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/39 "2018-06-28T02:24:58Z")
Yeah I never really got why the recipe wasn’t simply stick knife on stick. Either that or have a spike spear and a knife spear.
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### Author:  [@Nikarus](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Nikarus)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/curious-about-people-s-opinion-about-the-change-on-the-knife-spear-to-fragile-melee/15694/40 "2018-06-28T17:43:14Z")
My question is… why isnt anyone socketing a length of pipe over a stick and nailing it in place?
Take a pipe, hammer the middle a bit (try to angle the crease) then bend it back and forth at an angle till it snaps. Get 2 bits with fairly sharp 45 degree points.
Take 1 of them, slide it over the stick a few inches, and hammer a nail through it and the stick to fix it in place. Then hammer the pipe near the point down flatter for a better shape. Might hammer the socket portion down for a better fit too so theres less wobbling. Maybe use a couple rags int he socket to improve the fit.
Tapering of the point and the nail prevent it from sliding either way off the shaft. More durable. All that.
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