# Craftable utility lights
**URL:** https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750
**Category:** The Drawing Board
**Created:** [December 5, 2018, 9:18pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750 "2018-12-05T21:18:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@DrakeDragon8](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DrakeDragon8)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/41 "2018-12-06T01:04:28Z")
You CAN use a hacksaw to do it as well
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### Author:  [@Malkeus](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Malkeus)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/42 "2018-12-06T01:04:43Z")
Classic derail…
I like your idea of putting it on the Rivtech book, makes sense they’d have a fairly easy to build atomic worklight in there too. Is the plan to still make it portable? That’s a lot of investment in skill gains and exploration to get the recipe, it’d be a shame to have it stuck in one place.
edit: not to mention the plutonium, which is much harder to get in mainline…
edit2: Thanks @DrakeDragon8 for pointing out what I’d overlooked. One of the dangers of speedskimming is overlooking the details, but damn theres just soo much to read.
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### Author:  [@DrakeDragon8](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DrakeDragon8)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/43 "2018-12-06T01:06:35Z")
> [@Craftable utility lights](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/19):
>
> I’d make it like a folding butcher rack. You carry around an item and activate it to deploy it. Once deployed it’s furniture and can be dragged about.
It’s perfectly reasonable to not catch all of the details ESPECIALLY when some are actually not related at all -sorry not sorry
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### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 5:24am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/44 "2018-12-06T05:24:10Z")
Just to interject some realness
> **[Radioisotope thermoelectric generator | Terrestrial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator#Terrestrial)**
>
> Known spacecraft/nuclear power systems and their fate. Systems face a variety of fates, for example, Apollo's SNAP-27 were left on the Moon. Some other spacecraft also have small radioisotope heaters, for example each of the Mars Exploration Rovers have a 1 watt radioisotope heater. Spacecraft use different amounts of material, for example MSL Curiosity has 4.8 kg of plutonium-238 dioxide, while the Cassini spacecraft had 32.7 kg.
Tl;dr RTGs that produce 100s of watts like you want for a floodlight weigh hundreds to thousands of kilos.
Theres a reason they’re so rarely used.
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### Author:  [@Azure\_Soul\_Azur](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Azure_Soul_Azur)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 5:32am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/45 "2018-12-06T05:32:16Z")
… Then we just need to add some new rarer mid-late game material from another dimension :3 after all it’s the cataclysm. Anything is possible.
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### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 6:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/46 "2018-12-06T06:27:26Z")
We don’t _need_ to do anything.
There are totally resonable solutions for this kind of thing that don’t require making things up.
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### Author:  [@Zhilkin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zhilkin)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 7:05am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/47 "2018-12-06T07:05:42Z")
See [Construction recipe: Build utility light](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/construction-recipe-build-utility-light/13751).
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### Author:  [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 7:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/48 "2018-12-06T07:07:18Z")
To start, I’d assume we’re not using incandescent bulbs, so that’s about 20W using an LED floodlight. This is the 2040s, and even now it’s trivial to get low power led lights.
There are numerous ~20W RTGs used in aerospace that run in the 10-40kg range in the article you listed… The terrestrial ones listed are huge because they’re all obsolete, antique Soviet designs used in remote lighthouses. Not exactly a reasonable comparison.
That said, there’s no reason this thing has to be compact. I’d be perfectly happy with it being 200kg.
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### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/49 "2018-12-06T07:57:34Z")
> [@Erk](#):
>
> I’d assume we’re not using incandescent bulbs,
Me either.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> so that’s about 20W using an LED floodlight.
Wat, no, a serious LED floodlight is still going to be in the neighborhood of 100W.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> This is the 2040s,
No, it isn’t, it’s present day.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> There are numerous ~20W RTGs used in aerospace
That’s not just aerospace, it’s space travel, which is code for, “you’re not building it”.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> huge because they’re all obsolete, antique
No, they’re huge because it keeps costs down. There’s not that much you can do to improve efficiency without also making them much more expensive to build.
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### Author:  [@Midas](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Midas)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 9:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/50 "2018-12-06T09:01:49Z")
> [@nameless\_survivor](#):
>
> Plus, who wants to build a shitload of frames with a floodlight and engines+alternators/solar panels/storage batteries that make tons of noise & smoke, and need to be regularly refueled or micromanaged.
That’s the point, if you need a light, you’ll have to find a solution, i.e. build solar panels/alternator and attach them to a floodlight. If you have a problem, you should solve it.
RTG is a complex and dangerous device made with precise equipment, and I doubt a survivor would be able to construct one.
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### Author:  [@Azure\_Soul\_Azur](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Azure_Soul_Azur)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/51 "2018-12-06T09:51:50Z")
What about finding one?
Well really i don’t care what is done.
Just that i don’t have to go through a load of bull to get my bunker i dug out lit up.
If whats in the game atm is made better then thats fine.
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### Author:  [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/52 "2018-12-06T10:26:27Z")
What about if its using a betavoltaic device to power it, rather than an RTG? I always figured something like this was what the plutonium cells were in the first place, and what the smaller atomic powered things were using, like the atomic coffee maker.
> **[Betavoltaic device](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betavoltaic_device)**
>
> Betavoltaic devices, also known as betavoltaic cells, are generators of electric current, in effect a form of battery, which use energy from a radioactive source emitting beta particles (electrons). A common source used is the hydrogen isotope tritium.
> Unlike most nuclear power sources, which use nuclear radiation to generate heat, which then is used to generate electricity (thermoelectric and thermionic sources), betavoltaics use a non-thermal conversion process; converting the electron-hole pa...
The only reason they aren’t more widely used is that lithium ion batteries were invented. They can be made compact enough that they were being used to run pacemakers in the 70’s. There are also versions which run off of charged alpha particles (aka helium nuclei).
A recent one had an energy density of 3.3 KwH/kg and a half life of 100 years. For comparison, a lithium ion battery has an energy density of 11.6 KwH/kg.
It isn’t something you would make yourself, but it is something you could find or remove from some piece of equipment and repurpose.
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### Author:  [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/54 "2018-12-06T16:32:28Z")
My heart’s not really in it for a prolonged argument about whether or not compact nuclear cells would be available in a world where we can create weapons-grade laser beams the size of a finger and surgically install them using a small AI driven robot (with no visible power supply mind you) available in any medium sized hospital and several civilian basements, with no risk of infection or rejection.
My point is that by mid-game, the systems needed to get decent lighting underground stop being a fun challenge, and starts being an onerous nuisance. Eventually we could fix this with better power grids, but there are tools in game to make a believable long-term light source. If you’re dead set on leaving it annoying, I’m done arguing about it, I’ll just change my own game and be done.
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### Author:  [@DrakeDragon8](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DrakeDragon8)
#### Post date: [December 6, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/55 "2018-12-06T16:48:40Z")
I have no problems with this and if an alternative is needed use something biological it might help a bit more with realism… maybe? I just like this idea as it would be very useful to have at any point.
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### Author:  [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/56 "2018-12-07T02:07:40Z")
> [@Erk](#):
>
> My heart’s not really in it for a prolonged argument about whether or not compact nuclear cells would be available in a world where we can create weapons-grade laser beams the size of a finger and surgically install them using a small AI driven robot (with no visible power supply mind you) available in any medium sized hospital and several civilian basements, with no risk of infection or rejection.
That’s good, because there’s no winning that argument, it’s built on a pile of fallacies.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> by mid-game, the systems needed to get decent lighting underground stop being a fun challenge,
I don’t have a problem fixing that, but making a unrealistically cheap power supply isn’t an option.
> [@Erk](#):
>
> there are tools in game to make a believable long-term light source.
There are, but it’s a 100+kg RTG that requires ~50 plutonium cells to build, not a 10kg one that takes a handful of cells. The investment just doesn’t make sense.
On the other hand, it seems like the real issue is a lack of convenience and some features related to getting power transfer working between levels, which should be fixable even in the short term.
> [@nameless\_survivor](#):
>
> a betavoltaic device
Your source doesn’t have any references for large-scale Betavoltaic devices, only tiny ones.
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### Author:  [@Trigon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Trigon)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 2:17am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/57 "2018-12-07T02:17:37Z")
With all the arguments against player built setups like this it just makes me wonder about the atomic lamp. How is it supposed to operate? Magic?
I do think making a foldable utility light level thing is probably outside the realm of what the player should be able to do without tapping into vehicle use, and tossing more plutonium at it doesn’t inherently balance it.
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### Author:  [@Erk](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Erk)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/58 "2018-12-07T02:29:52Z")
Out of curiosity, Kevin, what are you picturing when I say utility light? Because I’ve got a light that runs on a small Li battery for hours and lights up my entire backyard quite nicely. It’s what I’m picturing, albeit much bulkier and clunkier when rigged up by a survivor. It puts out like 2600 lumens on an 18v battery and lasts for hours. I think it’s 15W.
I get the impression you think I’m talking about a giant daylight array like they use to light up industrial sites at night.
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### Author:  [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 2:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/59 "2018-12-07T02:34:18Z")
Here is a patent for a betavoltaic device that can recharge a cell phone. This type of technology is very scaleable, its just currently expensive and kind of niche compared to lithium ion batteries.
[https://patents.google.com/patent/US8872408](https://patents.google.com/patent/US8872408)
Since you don’t want to do the utility light thing, this would still be worthy of further review for implementation elsewhere. Maybe as a reward for a lab. A small perpetual power supply mod for tools, or a trickle charge bionic power supply or something.
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### Author:  [@DrakeDragon8](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DrakeDragon8)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 3:05am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/60 "2018-12-07T03:05:25Z")
You know after playing some ss13 and coming back to this, a fun alternative might be some bio-luminescent fungus or other such things… which might be good for wilderness characters… fireflies in jars… capturing glowing creatures… seems like fun
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### Author:  [@nameless\_survivor](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/nameless_survivor)
#### Post date: [December 7, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/craftable-utility-lights/17750/61 "2018-12-07T03:18:10Z")
Like a glowing blob in a jar. I can see it now:
“This is a small glowing blob sealed inside a glass jar. It seems to glow angrily at its confinement”.
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