# Composite bow with makeshift arrows bringing down skeletal jugs. Intended..?

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [April 8, 2020, 8:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182 "2020-04-08T08:12:10Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 3

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/41 "2020-04-17T20:36:00Z")

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> [@Kenan](#):
>
> even developers admit that it’s not the way it was intended to be

I’m not clear what you’re referencing here, there is certainly some tuning that can happen, but in broad strokes it is working as intended.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> end-game bows with end-game rigid metal arrows are supposed to be viewable against Kevlar zombies and even juggernauts

They are not at all. Anything with extensive and unnatural levels of armor is going to defeat any and all arrows, that’s explicitly working as intended.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> some of them require incredible amounts of strength which is only possible with CBMs and are akin to ballistas in your bag

The remote upper end of bows is ~200lb draw force, the upper end of an arbalest is ~2,000lbs, but an arbalest has short limbs and a short draw length/power stroke, ballistas sit at around 4,000lb draw weight with a much longer power stroke, they are not comparable.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> if it makes a huge category of weapons obsolete after mid-game,

You’re both overstating things and making an incorrect statement about balance.  
Bows do not become obsolete, there are niches where they continue to be useful all the way to the end of the game. If your personal preference is to not carry them in favor of other options, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it does not mean they’re obsolete.  
It doesn’t actually matter if a “huge category of weapons” DID become obsolete at some point if that’s how it pans out. For example, most throwing weapons _should_ be obsolete by mid-game since a bow and arrow will be strictly better than throwing weapons, but that’s not a problem, thrown weapons are just bad for most purposes.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> Based on this

Your first source shows a field point _not_ piercing a very low end ballistic plate.  
The second one shows some modern bows and crossbows defeating some relatively thin looking chainmail, I’m not clear how this is supposed to be at all definitive.  
So basically your evidence shows that high-end bows with field points can defeat _some_ chain armor, and there is no evidence of anything defeating even the weakest ballistic plate.

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**Author:** ![Kenan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e495f1/32.png) [@Kenan](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kenan)\
**Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/42 "2020-04-17T22:55:15Z")

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Thanks for your clarification, Kevin, i do appreciate it 🙂

> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> They are not at all. Anything with extensive and unnatural levels of armor is going to defeat any and all arrows, that’s explicitly working as intended.

Well yeah i’ve exaggerated this one a bit but considering more “normal” and “humane” types armored zombies (like majority of zombie soldier types) and not monstrosities who have managed to fuse their bodies with metal or bone material, metal arrows should be quite strong against them since, well, it’s pretty much a walking corpse in a military suit

> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> The remote upper end of bows is ~200lb draw force, the upper end of an arbalest is ~2,000lbs, but an arbalest has short limbs and a short draw length/power stroke, ballistas sit at around 4,000lb draw weight with a much longer power stroke, they are not comparable.

Yeah, exaggerated that too a wee bit

> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> You’re both overstating things and making an incorrect statement about balance

I get what you mean with your throwing weapons example, it’s just bows and crossbows are so varied for both early, mid and end-game that it would honestly in my opinion be a shame if they did get obsoleted at some point in the gameplay, that’s just my opinion 😉

> [@kevin.granade](#):
>
> Your first source shows a field point _not_ piercing a very low end ballistic plate.  
> The second one shows some modern bows and crossbows defeating some relatively thin looking chainmail, I’m not clear how this is supposed to be at all definitive.  
> So basically your evidence shows that high-end bows with field points can defeat _some_ chain armor, and there is no evidence of anything defeating even the weakest ballistic plate.

Check this out too, it’s more high-quality and more armors and bows/arrows are tested in this one [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08hwbz574I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y08hwbz574I) , like i said in my first quote i believe the truth is somewhere in the middle - it should be viable against “weaker” types of armors which can be soft Kevlar and something similar to it 🙂

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**Author:** ![Tamior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Tamior](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Tamior)\
**Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/43 "2020-04-18T00:16:00Z")

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Gameplay video of the current bow meta I promised a bit earlier.  
(Featuring composite bow + makeshift wooden arrows.)

https://player.twitch.tv/?video=v595107809&autoplay=false

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**Author:** ![Kenan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e495f1/32.png) [@Kenan](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Kenan)\
**Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/44 "2020-04-18T01:35:28Z")

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Ok, i admit, it’s quite good even in such state, i was **partially wrong** 🙂 , don’t mind my harshness, it’s just i’m analyzing these very carefully to find proper balanced values myself, though have you tried shooting Juggernauts or Kevlar zombies or Military zombies with it?

It’s just i’m not a fan of either low-high damage or extremely crit-dependent damage systems, it’s very noticeable in weaker bows, that’s why it’s unbalanced, in my mod i’m increasing the damage and reducing the crit\_multiplier to make it more stable and more boring but eh, some might prefer it this way when it is all clearly expected and less randomized

Moreover, armor\_penetration barely does anything based on my tests, i’ve tested both 0 armor\_penetration and 8 armor\_penetration arrows - no difference in damage against Kevlar hulks or Military zombies, it definitely should not be like this, for some reason **raw bow damage affects armor piercing much more than actual armor\_piercing parameter of arrows**

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**Author:** ![Tamior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Tamior](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Tamior)\
**Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/45 "2020-04-18T15:30:20Z")

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> [@Kenan](#):
>
> though have you tried shooting Juggernauts or Kevlar zombies or Military zombies with it?

Skeletal jugs — yes. Arrows just plink off. However, that was composite bow with makeshift wooden arrows. Compound bow with broadheads _might_ behave somewhat differently.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> It’s just i’m not a fan of either low-high damage or extremely crit-dependent damage systems, it’s very noticeable in weaker bows, that’s why it’s unbalanced

Composite bow is already very easy to craft. Any bow weaker than that is essentially a training bow —if you choose to use those vs a non-practice target and they fail to deliver any real damage, that’s mostly on you.

> [@Kenan](#):
>
> Moreover, armor\_penetration barely does anything based on my tests, i’ve tested both 0 armor\_penetration and 8 armor\_penetration arrows - no difference in damage against Kevlar hulks or Military zombies, it definitely should not be like this, for some reason **raw bow damage affects armor piercing much more than actual armor\_piercing parameter of arrows**

Now **this** is a very valid concern. Essentially, armor-piercing arrows/bolts were never properly coded. However, that’s a somewhat isolated issue.  
Also, This video here:

[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Uoz0eggQen8/maxresdefault.jpg "Medieval Crossbow vs Flexible Armours") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoz0eggQen8)

Kind of shows that “armor-piercing bolts” are really only better against the **exact** type of armor they were designed to penetrate. Otherwise broardheads still rule the day.

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**Author:** ![spicyshadow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5e9695/32.png) [@spicyshadow](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/spicyshadow)\
**Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/46 "2020-04-18T15:58:22Z")

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i just want my properly forged metal arrows that take have a day to make in decent quantity but are not just pieces of scrap taped to the end of a shaft, and mega bow, mega bows to for those 20/30+ strength mutant sapevore monsters that don’t even see themselfs as human anymore so why are they using crappy human bows when they could use something the size of a small tree.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Tamior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/41988e/32.png) [@Tamior](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Tamior)\
**Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/composite-bow-with-makeshift-arrows-bringing-down-skeletal-jugs-intended/23182/47 "2020-04-18T16:42:01Z")

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> [@spicyshadow](#):
>
> mega bows to for those 20/30+ strength mutant sapevore monsters that don’t even see themselfs as human anymore

Sounds like mod material to me. `¯\_(ツ)_/¯ `

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