Classic Mode Update

[whw4]

I wish Classic mode did not automatically get rid of the special/interesting buildings. That’s my main gripe, that you either have Classic zombies and virtually no where interesting to go, or have to run away from the kitchen-sink full of baddies in Regular mode and be able to check out labs and whatnot.

Even being able to toggle -some- of the special stuff would be neat. Like say I want Classic zombies and the Lovecraftesque stuff, but no triffids. That should be a thing.

[Binky]

[quote=“whw4, post:13, topic:4605”]I wish Classic mode did not automatically get rid of the special/interesting buildings. That’s my main gripe, that you either have Classic zombies and virtually no where interesting to go, or have to run away from the kitchen-sink full of baddies in Regular mode and be able to check out labs and whatnot.

Even being able to toggle -some- of the special stuff would be neat. Like say I want Classic zombies and the Lovecraftesque stuff, but no triffids. That should be a thing.[/quote]

I know that the end goal is to have it very customizable (especially in terms of which enemies you want and stuff), I’m sure that’s not too far off actually, and an worldgen option could probably be quite easily made.

I definitely agree with the lack of special buildings, I’ll try to put those back in somehow, as even without the sci-fi stuff within them it does feel a bit limited in the building department without all the additions.

[deadmerits]

I sorta have an idea involving the descriptive tags such as Fleeing Hostile and Tracking.
Mostly something like:

Docile/Wandering Tag- this would be for the zombies that haven’t seen or heard you. They would be easier to hit with ranged weapons because they’re not really moving around so they’re easier to hit.

Tracking Tag- I can’t think of anything better for the name but basically this is a zombie that has seen or heard you. I can’t think of anything special to put with this except maybe they can get other zombies to follow them unless they see another npc or you the player. That could cause hoards to form and come your direction.

Enraged Tag- This is for when the zombie is right near you, maybe a couple of squares, but only if you can be seen. Maybe an increase in speed and possibly harder to hit with ranged weapons, to simulate the difficulty of trying to get a precise shot at close range combined with a jerky fast zombie.

So just some quick thoughts that I guess have been swimming around a little while but definitely would flesh out zombies more as an actual creature and not just a punching bag.

Edit: Fixed a typo

[Inadequate]

They would be harder to hit with ranged weapons because they’re not really moving around so they’re easier to hit.

Huh?

Aside from that, I’m not sure whether the rest of it is a good idea or not, but at least it’s internally consistent.

[deadmerits]

Okay you caught me with a typo… no harder yes easier.
At first I was wondering how to better explain myself but fixing the typo should do.

[Binky]

Interesting one. Really what you’re saying is that they should get a speed boost and be harder to hit with ranged weapons up close, as well as being a bit more docile when further away??

I like that, however I think the ‘harder to hit with ranged weapons when next to player’ would be a good overall mechanic for CataDDA. Possibly start a separate thread for it?

I will definitely think about making them more docile at a longer range though, it’s quite easy to do (I think) with changing their sight parameters and it might be a good way of balancing things.

[deadmerits]

Other things I was thinking about were involving the lore. Should the classic zombie “virus” be a mystery? And what about bites, should they be “one bite and you’re hooked”? I can only imagine that working with a system that tracks progress, much like the memorial system, because getting a death sentence would basically end the game for traditional play.
And stealth seems to be important for that suspense feel if nothing else… there should be some surprises, pop up zombies from corpses as you approach or lurkers, that sort of thing.

Also should “our” zombies only crave human flesh or should they attempt to eat anything alive and moving?

I’m just thinking out loud as it were and trying to help stimulate conversation and brainstorming.

[Binky]

I’m not sure about changing anything lore wise, I don’t really want classic mode to break way from normal catadda so much that it becomes pretty much a separate game.

Although making bites more dangerous seems like a good idea, I worry that that would force players into playing a ranged character with high dodge skills.

Pop up zombies and the like are similarly a good idea for the main game in general, although I may work on that as a side project when I get time as I think that’d be a great addition!

[deadmerits]

I’m seeing more and more of my ideas suggested as general C:DDA improvementslol here. That was not my intention but I may have strayed from the general idea. The reason for the lore change suggestion was simply due to the
Warning Possible Spoilers

trans-dimensional “goo” that was reanimating dead corpses. While that could still work for the classic zombies mode, a simple its the same as original DDA but without specials just doesn’t sit right with me. If we explain the zombies with the goo, we’re also explaining portals and migos and flaming eyes. They can be separate but along the same lines, maybe the goo only affects humans and the portals didn’t open across the landscape, but I personally don’t like that frame of mind for a classic mode.
Just my opinion though.

Edit: The goo does work however for most parts. It can spread through bites: believable. Goo gathers around the central nervous system (spine and brains) so head shots=deadly: believable.

[Binky]

snip

I definitely agree with what you’re saying, we’ll need to be careful that the lore doesn’t come across too strongly in classic mode (for instance if we get readable books on lore, we’ll need to make sure they don’t get included). I think the main thing is that classic mode can be zombies for the sake of zombies (like most films and things) - we don’t need to explain them explicitly, just make sure we avoid references to goo and aliens and whatever.

The reason why I’ve suggested your ideas become general DDA improvements is because I think that they’d be useful for everyone, they are things I’ve thought about and will hopefully try to implement, but for this topic I’m mainly wanting to try to gauge what peoples view on ‘hardcore’ is - is it more of ‘every day is a struggle to survive’ or ‘surviving is fine as long as you don’t run head first into zombies’

[moist_zombie]

First “realism” thought I have is that to effectively hunt you’d have to get out in the woods and sit nice and quiet and wait on animals to approach you, because I could never chase down a rabbit or deer on foot in real life :> Improvised hunting is a pretty desperate affair in reality, as most live unprocessed meat is highly alert and fast as lightning It’d add a lot of value to the snares/hunting traps as well…

I’d like to see some kind of buffing action with regular Classic after a certain amount of time passed :> And I’d love to see a totally separate realism mode (though quite a few people value realism in Cata and would want lots of it merged into main anyway :> )…

[infectedmochi]

First “realism” thought I have is that to effectively hunt you’d have to get out in the woods and sit nice and quiet and wait on animals to approach you, because I could never chase down a rabbit or deer on foot in real life :> Improvised hunting is a pretty desperate affair in reality, as most live unprocessed meat is highly alert and fast as lightning It’d add a lot of value to the snares/hunting traps as well…

+1. Stealth and elaborate trapping are what I’m looking forward here, among many others.

[Binky]

[quote=“moist_zombie, post:23, topic:4605”]First “realism” thought I have is that to effectively hunt you’d have to get out in the woods and sit nice and quiet and wait on animals to approach you, because I could never chase down a rabbit or deer on foot in real life :> Improvised hunting is a pretty desperate affair in reality, as most live unprocessed meat is highly alert and fast as lightning It’d add a lot of value to the snares/hunting traps as well…

I’d like to see some kind of buffing action with regular Classic after a certain amount of time passed :> And I’d love to see a totally separate realism mode (though quite a few people value realism in Cata and would want lots of it merged into main anyway :> )…[/quote]

First point: I definitely agree that hunting needs to be changed around. I think my first thing will be to drastically cut down on squirrel and rabbit spawns, as that’s the leading cause of being able to catch enough meat in a few minutes. Hunting deers and everything else is a lot harder, as most stuff is dangerous or fast. I think the whole trapping/snaring animals thing is quite a big undertaking and an honestly unsure how to go about that but It definitely needs doing.

I’m not sure what you mean about "I’d like to see some kind of buffing action with regular Classic after a certain amount of time passed "? If you mean that it should get more difficult over time I definitely agree. I’m hoping to do a small change by making non-perishable food a lot less common (at the sake of some realism, but we can pass it off as being because most of that was taken with people/looted) as well as any other smaller ones. However, other changes I’d like to do (such as polluted water over time, higher re-spawning rates over time) will probably be pretty big additions which will require the work of some of the main devs really.

[ted]

Classic mode should not be a vanilla option.

[Binky]

Classic mode should not be a vanilla option.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

[ted]

[quote=“ted, post:26, topic:4605”]Classic mode should not be a vanilla option.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?[/quote]

I mean that classic mode should be a mod, or should not exist.

The changes that could be made to classic mode are endless. It’s not practical for vanilla devs to spend a lot of time on an expanded classic mode. Players who don’t use classic don’t benefit, and since it’s not the default, they’re probably the majority.

It’s also likely that vanilla developers don’t work on classic mode because most don’t play classic mode, which is entirely reasonable. If so, it would be best to axe the half-hearted option, and dispel the illusion of support.

If classic mode warrants this degree of attention, it should be a separate mod with dedicated developers. This would absolve vanilla devs of the obligation to support classic, and would make it clearer who’s willing to work on it.

[deadmerits]

I kinda thought Binky had started this thread because he intended to work on it, or at least to gather ideas for anyone who was interested in working on it. I don’t think anyone here is expecting the main branch to be neglected to work on this, but it very well could be if the individual devs decided they like classic better. And yeah, should be a mod, but since the options already there it no sense in deleting it until the mod manager is finished.

Anyways more ideas for hardcore survival. I was thinking, I live in a little neighborhood but I’m still surrounded by civilization.
The hardest part of my escape plan involves… well escaping.
I’m not out in the woods, in a bunker with all the time in the world to collect food and set up defenses and build weapons, I have to grab something quick and hope everything goes smooth between here and the safe spot.

So basically starting in different places… sounded better all elaborate but there it is.

[Binky]

[quote=“ted, post:28, topic:4605”]I mean that classic mode should be a mod, or should not exist.

The changes that could be made to classic mode are endless. It’s not practical for vanilla devs to spend a lot of time on an expanded classic mode. Players who don’t use classic don’t benefit, and since it’s not the default, they’re probably the majority.

It’s also likely that vanilla developers don’t work on classic mode because most don’t play classic mode, which is entirely reasonable. If so, it would be best to axe the half-hearted option, and dispel the illusion of support.

If classic mode warrants this degree of attention, it should be a separate mod with dedicated developers. This would absolve vanilla devs of the obligation to support classic, and would make it clearer who’s willing to work on it.[/quote]

As Deadmerits has said, none of the vanilla devs are going to put their time into this at the expense of the vanilla game (unless they want too) - it’s just me (and any one else who wants to help!). Any of the bigger changes (if I get around to them) would be easily pulled into the main branch so it’s not like we’d be developing for this and not vanilla or vice-versa.

I’ve asked for peoples ideas as I want it to be something that is suitable for an option, rather than a mod, because a lot of people DO seem to prefer it (out of all the people I’ve mentioned it to, they’ve all preferred classic) and because the mod manager isn’t at all ready yet. I’m sure when it does, the game will become a lot more modularised and it can get put into a mod if that’s appropriate, but it doesn’t do any harm to work on it now.

Deadmerits: Starting in a different place is a great idea! I’ve not looked at the code (Happy Christmas everyone!) but I’ll give it a shot - If I can’t easily move starting position, I can probably get rid of the shelter building around where the player starts, so they just start in a field, which would at least make it a bit more interesting as they don’t have a ‘safe spot’ from wildlife and the elements.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“Binky, post:27, topic:4605”][quote=“ted, post:26, topic:4605”]Classic mode should not be a vanilla option.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?[/quote]

I mean that classic mode should be a mod, or should not exist.

The changes that could be made to classic mode are endless. It’s not practical for vanilla devs to spend a lot of time on an expanded classic mode. Players who don’t use classic don’t benefit, and since it’s not the default, they’re probably the majority.

It’s also likely that vanilla developers don’t work on classic mode because most don’t play classic mode, which is entirely reasonable. If so, it would be best to axe the half-hearted option, and dispel the illusion of support.

If classic mode warrants this degree of attention, it should be a separate mod with dedicated developers. This would absolve vanilla devs of the obligation to support classic, and would make it clearer who’s willing to work on it.[/quote]
If I understand you correctly, what you mean by “mod” is a fork, as in a seperate codebase that diverges from the main game. If so I can’t disagree with you more, the whole point is to keep the codebase the same so that we can leverage development of both sub-games. This is even more critical considering how rapidly development is proceeding, quite a lot of development occurs in the areas of vehicles, map generation, player abilities, rendering, etc, in fact the amount of code that is NOT shared between vanilla and classic mode is extremely small.
For a month or so Oddzball was maintaining classic mode as a seperate mod, and it added a huge amount of overhead to sharing improvements in both directions.

[kevin.granade]

- Massively buff all classic zombies. This would be a straight buff in all areas (except speed), a doubling in hit points and giving them all the ‘hard to shoot’ flag (to emulate needing headshots).

Not sure what you mean by buff in all areas, you mean HP, attack accuracy, dodge, attack damage?
HP in particular could be quite simple to just multiply their HP if you’re in classic mode, the others are a bit more problematic if you’re talking about finely tweaking them at all. One thing we’re doing is adding some more varieties of zombies that qualify as classic to fill out the danger a bit.

- I would suggest that some (or maybe all) zombies could be given the grab attack.

I’ve been thinking about doing this, one holdup is there has been a good bit of disagreement about what a grab attack should do. (the current free attack thingy is pretty lame).

- Reinstate Zombie dog spawns (have they been taken out?) and buff them slightly.

The dog got removed from classic, but I believe there’s a faster zombie that was added.

- Up the base spawn rate and lower item spawn rate by default. As those of you have been around know, I’m in favour of those things anyway, but I think this would balance things out more. A more selective run through of classic spawn items could be done to remove most automatic weapons (make them very rare) as well as adjust things slightly.

You can do both of these with options.