# Cataclysm's Complex Gun Issues **URL:** \ **Category:** The Drawing Board\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155 "2013-01-30T11:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2

**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/21 "2013-02-01T20:47:22Z")

> [@Ander Hammer](#): > > [quote=“Kevin Granade, post:7, topic:155”][quote=“Ander Hammer, post:1, topic:155”][size=8pt]itt i make people angry[/size] I don’t see any anger, keep trying ;)[/quote] Patience. > I reject your "video games should be simple" assertion. ‘Simplified’, not ‘simple’. In real life, you’d need a few months of practice to get decent with a gun, or a bat, or a soldering iron. For that matter, in real life, gun stores have way more guns than Cataclysm. My primary issue is that there can currently be several different options, sometimes non-evident and usually barely distinguishable from each other in any way but name, to go with the box of ammo you found in a rack; I would rather it be two of the same pistol than one with +1 damage and -1 accuracy from the other and a completely different name. Lighting it up in green was a good first step, but I’d like either less ‘realism’ concerning the potential choices or for there to be a more noticeable difference. I agree that the complexity can add a certain tension if you’re rifling through racks with a horde on your ass, but what it gains in that situation it loses in every other one where you’re completely safe… and arguably, the tension in that situation isn’t coming from which 9mm pistol to choose, but whether you can find a gun at all. > However, you're in luck, because there are two (2!) devs actively working toward moving gun and ammo definitions into config files instead of them being hardcoded in the source. Would this extend to modding in custom weapons, or is it going to be a stock list? Would it also include spawn weights and stack sizes? I wouldn’t want to reduce the number of firearms or add new ones and suddenly have none appear at all. > I think rather than removing the grenade launcher skill, I want more heavy weapons to use it with, along with a potential rename to "heavy weapons" or similar for highly ballistic weapons with large projectiles. [size=8pt]finally, thank you[/size] > I disagree in general about there being too many skills, and in fact one system I like very much is one with even finer granularity where you build up familiarity with a speci Will there be familiarity for bats and knives and thrown rocks, too? The major problem with adding more skills is the current experience system. I hope you change ‘whoops, ran out of exp, better not do anything’ before you add anything else to soak it up. And for that matter, are we ever going to see changes in character creation making 0-skill starts less feasible? I remember something about classes and skillsets before Whales moved on. > Is 3\* variants in some of the common calibers really too much? Yes and no. Shotguns have four types of ammo, and what do they do? One is low-powered, good for hunting. One is standard. One lets you use your shotgun as a rifle. The last lets you use it as a frag grenade launcher. (Notice that Cataclysm’s shotguns all use the same ammo, too!) Same for grenade launchers: most of their rounds have very different effects and can be loaded into any grenade launcher you find, and I’m holding out hope for RE-style acid/cryo/lightning grenades. 9mm, on the other hand, is one of seven pistol calibers and has plain, then +P, then +P+. One is the baseline. One is slightly better. One is noticeably better. Just kill the second type, balance the stats and rarity, and have the third be ‘the 9mm that’s better against armor’. On that same note, you could say that regular 9mm was hollow points all along, and I wouldn’t notice a difference, as it barely pierces armor now, anyway. This isn’t getting into .45’s three (thankfully varied) types or the two (slightly) different revolver calibers with two (slightly) different ammo types each.[/quote] Fair enough, I could see changing the 9mm options to 9mm(same as now), 9mm P(probably between +P and +P+, on the +P+ side), and 9mm FMJ (even better armor penetration than P, cannot be hand-loaded). It seems +P+ isn’t actually supposed to be that much better than regular Parabellum or +P anyway. > [@Ander Hammer](#): > > On an almost identical note, 5.7 and 4.8 are the same, save for the one-point damage difference, the P90’s giant magazine, and a five-point AP difference (which doesn’t matter, both are ridiculous). Cut one of them, make the spawns a bit rarer, and it turns from ‘have 5.7 gun, 4.8 ammo’ to ‘have 5.7 gun, no ammo’, also known as a scarcity situation that happens all the time anyway. No, it isn’t the same situation at all, as I outlined above, having two different calibers that are similar but incompatible is an intended element of the game. Also I’m not quite sure how you evaluate them as being identical while simultaneously pointing out the significant difference that is the P90s 2x larger magazine. The P90 is also 2x the volume and significantly heavier, all of these are significant differences. Also the rarity of the weapons/ammo is significantly different. > [@Ander Hammer](#): > > Reducing complexity should not be confused with ‘dumbing down’, which is not to be construed as the polar opposite of what Cataclysm should be. There does exist a level between ‘hurf durf too simple’ and ‘more everything please’, and that’s what I’m trying to aim for. In the same vein, ‘difficult things can be time consuming, therefore the more time I spend, the more difficult and thus rogue-like Cataclysm must be’ is an erroneous assumption. Something can take a lot of time without being difficult, like sifting through a gun stockpile trying to find the statistically-barely-better option for your .45 ACP because you ran out of 9mm or something. If that’s the problem, I think making sifting through a gun stockpile easier would be a good solution. There’s a proposal that has a lot of traction with several developers (including myself) to make an inventory interface that can be used to list/sort/search items within a 3-5 square radius. Also doing away with item letter limits for items on the ground is on the table, which would also have the effect of making sorting through piles of items far easier. [quote=“Ander Hammer, post:17, topic:155”]You’ll notice how I’m not complaining (nor will I ever) about adding construction options, different science labs, crafting options, gun maintenance, themes and flavor, stuff like that, because those things make the game more fun. Making your own ammo? Badass. Nothing is wrong with them. Skill bloat and overloaded item lists, on the other hand… if you want complexity and realism, why concentrate on infinity guns when you can add melee weapon durability, or deeper inventory management, or crafting options, or making staying fed more challenging/involved/varied, or balanced bionics, or something besides cramming more data into an area that doesn’t really need it? Are they a minority who walk into a gun spawn zone and mentally distill things to ‘hmm, that’s a shotgun and shotgun ammo; hmm, that’s a revolver and revolver ammo; where are zombie faces?’ I like the sound of more flexible configuration in the future. > The differences between pepsi and coke are practically nil. What’s the difference between a Glock and an USP 9mm? The response to these comparisons are the same: negligible to the point that only the people who maybe care about them a little too much will notice.[/quote] Currently not much, but there are plans to make use of the gun reliability info that’s already there, in which case the Glock will be far better. ---

**Author:** ![system](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/uploads/cataclysmdda/original/1X/21b5d044e8473b25d0bf905d60477e25f6fbe0cf.png) [@system](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/22 "2013-02-02T10:50:34Z")

I will hack your computer and remove gun spawns completely, and remove the debug window. Have such a problem with them then don’t use 'em. \>:( ---

**Author:** ![n9103](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e19adc/32.png) [@n9103](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/n9103)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/23 "2013-02-02T17:44:57Z")

hatetroll is trolling. chill man, it’ll be ok. ---

**Author:** ![Miloch](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/miloch/32/1339_2.png) [@Miloch](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Miloch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/24 "2013-02-06T12:26:29Z")

I’m not going to bother reading all of the argument. I will simply express my opinion and move on. I love the fact that there are a large variety of guns. I would like to see more. More types of ammo. I feel certain types of ammo should be made more common. Certain weapons should be made more common. Because they are more common IRL. I don’t feel like any firearm makes you god like. All firearms are double edged swords by definition (in a zombie apocalypse). I’d like to see more versions of cola even. I feel the more version of things, even if they differ only in name, give a game more character. One thing I was thinking of doing was seeing if they wouldn’t mind a volunteer to add more snacks, sodas, and other items that wouldn’t require any addition code to implement, just add flavor. ---

**Author:** ![n9103](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e19adc/32.png) [@n9103](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/n9103)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/25 "2013-02-06T14:20:15Z")

Until the arbitrary 26 items/tile limit is averted/lifted/removed, flavor for flavor’s sake becomes tedious for anyone that’s stockpiling or carrying anything other than what’s on their body. Thankfully the numerical limit of what’s carried on a person is soon to be lifted/reduced. Also, I’m not a fan of flavor for flavor’s sake. Minor differences in weapons and ammo, alright. They’re functional differences, particularly when rarity is a factor. (They can use the revision that’s forthcoming however.) Extremely minor differences in food, etc… No thanks. ---

**Author:** ![Miloch](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/miloch/32/1339_2.png) [@Miloch](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Miloch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/26 "2013-02-06T16:22:04Z")

Well, it seems odd that you play a game that seems to have lots of stuff along those lines… ---

**Author:** ![n9103](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e19adc/32.png) [@n9103](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/n9103)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/27 "2013-02-06T17:37:11Z")

There’s only a handful of items I would say fall into the latter category, almost all of them being most of the already existing snackfood. ---

**Author:** ![kampfgrupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/d9b06d/32.png) [@kampfgrupper](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kampfgrupper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155/28 "2013-02-10T11:43:15Z")

If I might add on, there are some real problems with the Gun System in reality. A 5.56 in a .223 chamber, will ruin the chamber, but a .223 in a 5.56 will work sort of. In fact, You could cause it to explode. A Glock, re-chambered for S&W 40, is practically a grenade. A .303 round and a 7.62x39 is actually really similar, but a 7.62x39 will not work in a Lee Enfield, but a .303 will sort of work in a SKS. I think, ammunition which is very similar, but not correct, should suffer penalties for accuracy/damage. Make ammuntion which can work but is not effective as the type that the Firearm is chambered for. Also, silenced weapons seem a tad buggy. I get less Zombie spawn, shooting a silenced SKS than I do killing a Zombie with a Machete. [Previous page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/cataclysms-complex-gun-issues/155.md?page=1)