# Butchering in 0.E+

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [July 29, 2020, 3:37am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288 "2020-07-29T03:37:37Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![TheZoneWizard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/thezonewizard/32/1397_2.png) [@TheZoneWizard](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheZoneWizard)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/21 "2020-07-30T15:40:53Z")

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An interesting thought regarding the morale. If one is sitting or kneeling it should take more time without a “surface”(direct ground; inside skin method as I suggested). But am I unhappy about doing it this way? I dunno. Maybe if a person is new to field dressing an animal? The “icky” factor would put most people off. But serious hunters and seasoned veterans of butchery shouldn’t get bothered by it or the task either. Par for Course if you ask most folks who do it.

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**Author:** ![Grimm\_Spector](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/grimm_spector/32/5132_2.png) [@Grimm\_Spector](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Grimm_Spector)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/22 "2020-07-30T15:59:27Z")

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My suggestion is that quick butchery not require a surface, have worse yields as it does, maybe some biological affect that’s minor since cooking happens.

And full butchery has the greater requirements to take the time and do the work. There can still be wiggle room there for larger surfaces decreasing time in my opinion.

> [@TheZoneWizard](#):
>
> An interesting thought regarding the morale. If one is sitting or kneeling it should take more time without a “surface”(direct ground; inside skin method as I suggested). But am I unhappy about doing it this way? I dunno. Maybe if a person is new to field dressing an animal? The “icky” factor would put most people off. But serious hunters and seasoned veterans of butchery shouldn’t get bothered by it or the task either. Par for Course if you ask most folks who do it.

The morale was due to soreness and difficulty, repetitive motion. Not the ickiness. If there is a trait for a weak stomach or blood aversion (which both I believe exist) that should already deal with the other issues there. I have no trouble with raw meat, processed or fresh, though I’ve never had a weak stomach.

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**Author:** ![TheZoneWizard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/thezonewizard/32/1397_2.png) [@TheZoneWizard](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/TheZoneWizard)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/23 "2020-07-30T16:07:13Z")

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I see. Perhaps a minor toll of the stamina then? I do not think anyone would dress an entire deer in one go without taking a short break though. Maybe this could be asked when the staminia bar gets rather low. Ya’know, before causing pain. Any reasonable person would just stop and breath and then continue onward where they left off.

Still not sure what part of the animal would get dirty though if you take your time inside the skin? Unless you refer to biological affect as being the animal being diseased?

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**Author:** ![souricelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@souricelle](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/souricelle)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:14pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/24 "2020-07-30T16:14:02Z")

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The game already simulates you taking breaks as you work. Your stamina drops and your character stops to catch their breath periodically, you just generally don’t have any reason to notice unless you get interrupted.

Again, full butchery with a rack and a table already simulates all of the stuff that the surface mechanic is trying to do. You get a lot more meat and you lose fewer organs. I’m not sure any change was necessary.

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**Author:** ![Grimm\_Spector](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/grimm_spector/32/5132_2.png) [@Grimm\_Spector](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Grimm_Spector)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/25 "2020-07-30T16:44:41Z")

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> [@TheZoneWizard](#):
>
> I see. Perhaps a minor toll of the stamina then? I do not think anyone would dress an entire deer in one go without taking a short break though. Maybe this could be asked when the staminia bar gets rather low. Ya’know, before causing pain. Any reasonable person would just stop and breath and then continue onward where they left off.
> 
> Still not sure what part of the animal would get dirty though if you take your time inside the skin? Unless you refer to biological affect as being the animal being diseased?

Stamina seems like a reasonable compromise, though I generally just keep at the task through the pain lol.

Biological affect for those who eat the raw meat, should be worse or have some consequence for those carnivorous mutants!

> [@souricelle](#):
>
> The game already simulates you taking breaks as you work. Your stamina drops and your character stops to catch their breath periodically, you just generally don’t have any reason to notice unless you get interrupted.
> 
> Again, full butchery with a rack and a table already simulates all of the stuff that the surface mechanic is trying to do. You get a lot more meat and you lose fewer organs. I’m not sure any change was necessary.

It’s mostly a question of you shouldn’t need a special surface to do a quick butchery.

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**Author:** ![souricelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@souricelle](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/souricelle)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 5:00pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/26 "2020-07-30T17:00:51Z")

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The ground isn’t honestly all that dirty, and in many cases players are butchering animals on concrete, asphalt, wood floors, etc. The real problem when you’re butchering is that if you nick the guts you can spoil the meat by exposing it to bacteria that was in the animal’s digestive system. This is where e.coli comes from a lot of the time. That kind of thing could be a survival check that a surface would give you a bonus to, I’d buy that much more than my character not knowing how to get a thigh from a dead bird without there being a plastic sheet on the floor.

[https://www.themeateater.com/cook/butchering-and-processing/field-butchering-tips-part-3-dealing-with-damaged-meat](https://www.themeateater.com/cook/butchering-and-processing/field-butchering-tips-part-3-dealing-with-damaged-meat)

This article talks about it a bit. I assume that’s also part of the intended difference between quick and full butchery though - you can’t safely get as much meat if you can’t get it out of the carcass without contaminating it. Again it really just seems like the surface is an unnecessary step that was already accounted for, and maybe what was really wanted here was to make butchering less risk-free.

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**Author:** ![Grimm\_Spector](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/grimm_spector/32/5132_2.png) [@Grimm\_Spector](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Grimm_Spector)\
**Post date:** [July 30, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/27 "2020-07-30T18:04:09Z")

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Yeah, those are some good fair points.

So I stand by my earlier suggestion that Quick Butchering should not require a surface, and that should be fine.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Grimm\_Spector](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/grimm_spector/32/5132_2.png) [@Grimm\_Spector](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Grimm_Spector)\
**Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 1:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/28 "2020-07-31T01:36:14Z")

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> [@KorGgenT](#):
>
> it’s based on size. a tarp is significantly larger than a table; you also probably can’t even fit a cow on a table.

So, “leather tarp” can be deployed to butcher, but a “tarpaulin” cannot be activated, and doesn’t have the “surface” quality. It should be no different than a plastic groundsheet!

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**Author:** ![Fload](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/fload/32/10988_2.png) [@Fload](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Fload)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/29 "2020-08-02T02:04:12Z")

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I don’t think small and medium surfaces bring enough functionality to warrant the confusion they inflict upon players. You might as well just have a single “surface” requirement for big corpses. I really don’t see any benefit in complicating this. Especially in the case of “small” (clean surface 1), which is equivalent to a… cutting board? I can see a dozen “small surfaces” just looking around my room. Does it really make sense to specifically designate items this way? Seems like a lot of unnecessary, uninteresting complexity to me.

From a gameplay perspective, why would you carry anything other than a leather tarp? I can’t even imagine a situation where a medium surface is particularly desirable, and it’s not really any more accessible than a large one.

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**Author:** ![Wasylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/cab0a1/32.png) [@Wasylus](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Wasylus)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 7:29am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/30 "2020-08-02T07:29:55Z")

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It probably isn’t the best place to say it, but all this discussion points to only one conclusion: this is an example of madness of forcing of pseudo-realism on everything. Pseudo-realism that this game neither needs nor is suited to have.

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**Author:** ![souricelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@souricelle](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/souricelle)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/31 "2020-08-02T16:25:46Z")

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Well in this case it isn’t realism. Realism would mean I can do a pretty good job cutting up even a large carcass on the ground in most places and might only need to worry if i was on muddy soil or somewhere that contaminants could get into the meat, but even in that case I’d still get meat, it just might have dirt or mud or sewage in it.

This is an attempt to complicate the butchering system and add depth that I think runs counter to the concept of realism, and has a lot of overlap with what was already in place.

As for small surfaces, the only reason I use a cutting board at home is because I don’t want to get my countertops dirty or scratched and I don’t want to dull my knife. If I was chopping up a turkey in a postapocalyptic house that wasn’t mine I wouldn’t even go looking for one.

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**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/32 "2020-08-02T21:25:51Z")

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While reading in this topic, I’m not sure if most of you are aware that this was in the game since a (relatively) long time ago and was just moved to the JSON format (and split up into more precise sections) in a recent change…

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**Author:** ![Fload](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/fload/32/10988_2.png) [@Fload](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Fload)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 10:14pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/34 "2020-08-02T22:14:05Z")

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I don’t recall needing a large surface for dissection until recently. If it was hardcoded before it must have been defunct. I’m also pretty sure a tourist table was enough to butcher a moose.

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**Author:** ![Valase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/valase/32/6972_2.png) [@Valase](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Valase)\
**Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/35 "2020-08-02T22:42:12Z")

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> [@Fload](#):
>
> What do you mean? [This](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/42372) was merged only recently.

I know, that’s the exact same link I’ve provided in the [first answer to this topic](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/2).  
I especially stated in my most recent answer that it preexisted and was just moved to JSON, which was basically a quote from the very pull request you (and I) have linked.  
Here’s the line it has replaced:

> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/42372/files#diff-d13ed72411aea98b2ed21e2cb17387ebL632>
>
> \<!-- HOW TO USE: Under each "#### Heading" below, enter information relevant to …your pull request.
> Leave the headings unless they don't apply to your PR, and remove the comment blocks (surrounded with \<!–– and ––\>) when you are done.
> 
> NOTE: Please grant permission for repository maintainers to edit your PR. It is EXTREMELY common for PRs to be held up due to trivial changes being requested and the author being unavailable to make them.
> \--\>
> 
> \#### Summary
> \`\`\`SUMMARY: Features "update butchery to use requirements"\`\`\`
> 
> \#### Purpose of change
> Moving data from hardcode into json, and also making the messaging clearer when tools are missing.
> 
> \#### Describe the solution
> use a \`requirement\` for various parts of butchery:
> field dress, quarter, skin, dismember: \`field\_dress\`
> dissect: \`dissect\_large\`, \`dissect\_small\`
> full: \`full\_butchery\_large\`, \`butchery\_small\`
> quick: \`butchery\_large\`, \`butchery\_small\`
> 
> Additionally, uses the same 6 tile range as crafting does.
> 
> \#### Describe alternatives you've considered
> Well we could keep butchery tools hardcoded i guess
> 
> 
> \#### Testing
> spawned in various creates with and without tools.
> !\[image\](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/30208401/88153244-25be7c00-cbd3-11ea-96a6-30dae11f0bae.png)
> 
> \#### Additional context
> 
> 
> Inspired by 4c9000b257fccab6ab6b6b93b4767ad0764a5c8c

> To perform a full butchery on a corpse this big, you need a table nearby or something else with a flat surface. A leather tarp spread out on the ground could suffice.

> [@Fload](#):
>
> I don’t recall needing a large surface for dissection until recently.

I (and most above my last post) are talking about butchering for meat. Not dissection. While I still agree ([and even stated so](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/7) earlier) that it should be possible to butcher a corpse without a surface but with other drawbacks, I - as written by my last post - also get the impression that most here think that this change happend recently and oppose this “new change”.  
Dissection, however, might be new to require a surface, but that’s already [discussed in an other topic](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/dissecting-in-0-e/24327) and is not what most of this discussion seems about (as you don’t get meat from dissection).

> [@Fload](#):
>
> I’m also pretty sure a tourist table was enough to butcher a moose.

That’s the part I’ve also adressed with…:

> [@Valase](#):
>
> […] and split up into more precise sections […]

…as it only checked for a table, but not the size of the carcass (and if it can fit).  
But anything bigger than (or equal to) creature\_size::medium always\* required a table to be butchered and was never\* able to be butchered on the ground for a full butchery.  
\*: Well, since the change in the butchering system a few… months(?) back.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mantar](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/mantar/32/42_2.png) [@Mantar](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Mantar)\
**Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/36 "2020-08-03T16:29:48Z")

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> [@Wasylus](#):
>
> this is an example of madness of forcing of pseudo-realism on everything

I think it’s more like “this is an example of a meme recoloring your view of the world.” The current state of butchering is not intentional, the devs are fully aware that it’s screwy and annoying. It’ll be fixed eventually.

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**Author:** ![Grimm\_Spector](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/grimm_spector/32/5132_2.png) [@Grimm\_Spector](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Grimm_Spector)\
**Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 5:03pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/37 "2020-08-03T17:03:24Z")

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And I don’t know about medium and larger creatures, but I was working on opossum and racoons!

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**Author:** ![KorGgenT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/korggent/32/12330_2.png) [@KorGgenT](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/KorGgenT)\
**Post date:** [August 3, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288/38 "2020-08-03T17:12:38Z")

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> <https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/42654>

part two of the feature

[Previous page](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/butchering-in-0-e/24288.md?page=1)