Bionic Limits Framework - working thread

[Valiant]

Does it need to be this complex? The system in place now isn’t perfect, but I think it’s better than adding layers of complexity to the system without good reason.

The reason is the same as why we have a weight and a volume limit in inventory. Players installing all CBMs they found and ran out of letters for hotkeys because of this isn’t a good thing.

[tarburst98]

hmmm… expanded digestion, it is sort of both an organ replacement and an extra space taker. it replaces normal guts with robo guts, but there are also more guts. BUT by the time you can install it you are probably already set for food anyway so it’s really just a utility. so let’s start with… 10 body space?

[psyxypher]

Players installing all CBMs they found and ran out of letters for hotkeys because of this isn’t a good thing.

This is easy to solve: Just make it so Passive and Active bionics don’t share hotkeys.

[Valiant]

This is easy to solve: Just make it so Passive and Active bionics don’t share hotkeys.

That’s fix for the consequences, not for the underlying issue.
Furthermore, what if we have, say, one hundred active bionics?

[psyxypher]

That’s fix for the consequences, not for the underlying issue.

I still don’t see why you need so much complexity to determine how much space a bionic takes up. What’s wrong with the system that’s in place where all the Bionics already have slots?

Furthermore, what if we have, say, one hundred active bionics?

Well we don’t. I’m not sure how to answer this, really. Just do what people already do?

[Aluminumfoil]

The system in place is that you can have all the bionics and infinite power. If you mean the debug version through the cheat menu, that system is only accessible through the cheat menu for a reason: the slots available and the amount of space each bionic takes up are determined by gut feeling, not a logical process, and other people had different gut feelings. Thus, to my knowledge bionic space limits got canned until such time as somebody would develop a consistently applicable logical process that could be balanced around and appealed to in case of disagreements.

[proxiehunter]

The system in place is that you can have all the bionics and infinite power.

Theoretically they can. Given the trouble I have finding more than a bunch of duplicate copies of the same bionic realistically do they actually do so without cheating? All I ask is that if this solution looking for a problem gets implemented please make it an optional mod.

[Aluminumfoil]

Not my call. I’m just playing with ideas at this point, I have no say over what ends up mainlined.

That being said, I’m pretty firmly in the camp of “Reasonable limits create reasonable choices and choices are what makes things fun.”

Also, being able to install everything without opportunity costs makes it hard to add new OP bionics or buff existing bionics to the level they really should be (for instance, alloy plating is laughably weak compared to its description).

[Aluminumfoil]

Internal volume available for bionics should probably be about 20% of the human body - the same as the percent body fat you can carry without looking out of shape. (Although maybe a little more, because certain bionics will replace the normal function of internal organs. I have to assume that the original organ is retained in diminished form, since you can remove bionics with high enough First Aid skill, except in the case of obvious amputation, like the Fusion Blaster Arm.)

Call it 20% of the human body as available internal space, for a total of 15L for a 70kg adult. So, 0.15L to a % of internal volume.

I’d say a % of internal volume is equivalent to a % of BSA, and I used 10x% to get space, above. (Summing to 1000 space, excluding Essence and Eyes). So items that have a lot of internal volume but not much BSA would be rated at 0.015L per unit space, for internal volume, which would then be added to 10x%BSA if any to get the total space cost of the item.

[druidniam]

Basing this off the Essence system is a pretty terrible idea and doesn’t thematically fit with the game world. The point of Essence was to prevent a person from becoming to close too the machine and losing their humanity (and to prevent cyborg mages). The technology of the game world, literally allows one to replace 100% of their body with machine parts, keeping the brain and a minor cardiovascular system to keep the brain functioning, but even that could be mildly argued because of the bionic implants that are directly attached to the brain.

In order for a system to work within bionicly limited slots, each bionic would need to be assigned a body part that it replaces. If it’s a general bionic that doesn’t associate with a limb, the chest and abdominal cavity of the human body has A LOT of empty space that is essentially a vacuum. Bionics would need to be overhauled a second time and given a volume. (Like an Integrated dosimeter would be fairly small and could fit between the cutaneous and subcutaneous layers of the skin, while an integrated minireactor would take up most of the abdominal cavity and require significant rearranging of the human anatomy.

That introduces another problem. Currently, you can install bionics on your own with enough pain medicine, but when you’re talking about 90% of the bionics, you would need a legitimate operating theater and either a team of surgeons, or a robotic equivalent (shamelessly stolen from another thread: http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-212 ). If we’re going to start limited space again, we need to impose a realistic way to install bionics in the first place.

[Aluminumfoil]

I mostly agree with you about Essence - certainly the thematic side of it is not appropriate out of context. It does, however, serve its purpose in Shadowrun mechanically, which is to provide a limiter on bionics without direct appeal to complex biology. It is in that regard that I think it might be useful here, but I may end up doing away with it and using only locational space, rather than an extra Essence limit for hard-to-mathematize bionics.

I see all the calculations and variables as taking place on the design side, not the code side. The game version would see only a location/s and a number of slot points.

Bionics are installed via Compact Bionics Module, which is described as a mostly-automated surgical installer. This is why they have such large volume, even though the bionic itself is tiny. The only role the player has is making sure that the automation is guided appropriately by a human intelligence. I see the fact that players can get CBMs by butchering monsters who have bionics installed is an oversight, or more likely an incomplete feature - presumably the player should be able to build CBMs out of a salvaged bionic and an installer kit of the appropriate level, or install non-module bionics with a team of robo-surgeons at a hospital as you described. If that was the case, they would indeed need a volume and a weight, since each bionic would have to have a representation in the game without its Module.

[psyxypher]

Keep in mind that Shadowrun is also Cyberpunk, while Cataclysm DDA is not (or at the very least I don’t see it that way).

Also, getting Bionics out of corpses isn’t too wild. Zombie Scientist has some Telescopic Eyes? You can just gouge them right out of the skull. Same with stuff like Hydraulic Muscles or Integrated Toolset.

Getting full blown CBMs, however, makes little sense. Also, according to Kevin the whole “Mostly-Automated Surgical Installer” thing was just a fan creation. Which is why it takes Painkillers to install bionics now.

If we’re gonna worry about reasonable installation of bionics, lets wait until NPCs are in a place where they can do things like help you install them.

[Aluminumfoil]

Also, getting Bionics out of corpses isn’t too wild. Zombie Scientist has some Telescopic Eyes? You can just gouge them right out of the skull. Same with stuff like Hydraulic Muscles or Integrated Toolset.

Getting full blown CBMs, however, makes little sense.

That’s what I mean.

Also, according to Kevin the whole “Mostly-Automated Surgical Installer” thing was just a fan creation. Which is why it takes Painkillers to install bionics now.

Maybe, but it makes sense, and needing painkillers to use them also makes sense, whereas self-installation of the more complicated or traumatic ones will never make sense. You’re not going to hold a robotic installer up to your eye while it operates on your retinas without some serious painkillers, but you’re never going to operate on your own retinas no matter how skilled you are and how little it hurts.

The fact that it’s instant is clearly an oversight, though, no matter the explanation.

[tarburst98]

there actually is an NPC that can help you install, a doctor shows up at the ranch after you do enough quests and you can pay them to install things for you.

[Valiant]

Well we don’t. I’m not sure how to answer this, really. Just do what people already do?

Imagine we add one hundred new bionics. Some player decides to install them all. There ain’t enough letters available for all the hotkeys, active or passive. With your rationale to leave the system as is just because it isn’t complex players won’t be able to activate the bionics without hotkeys assigned.
But hotkeys is a minor problem. We can add navigating through the bionics menu by the direction arrows, like in inventory menu.
As @Aluminumfoil already said,

“Reasonable limits create reasonable choices and choices are what makes things fun.”

Limiting space for installing bionics is both realistic and interesting.

[Sam_y2]

With the caveat that I know nothing about implementation:
What if the module was a semi-rare item that was loaded with multiple bionics, then installed?
This achieves no more technical balance than exists currently, but limits players with a certain amount of tedium, as with current bionic power. Sure, you could grind for every bionic ever, but at some point most people will call it quits.
Another “soft cap” would be to steadily increase the difficulty of installations.

[psyxypher]

You can activate Bionics that don’t have a hotkey installed, though.

And for the record, I’m saying I like the system of install space that’s available right now, or rather, I think it could be good with some changes. I was not talking about the ability to install all the cybernetics (though I do hope it is kept as an option through a mod).

EDIT: Forgot to add this part: My main concern is with the system for determining Install Space that the OP has put forward. It seems needlessly complex, and I have yet to get a reason why it should be as such.

[darktoes]

I could see the proposed system working as a possible method for determining how much space a body should have, while the actual space required for a bionic could be determined by looking at existing technology and items. However, I have to wonder if a “space” system is moving in the wrong direction, and perhaps we should consider another method for limiting bionics or making them more realistic.

The first one that comes to mind is integrating the encumbrance system. I.E: Each bionic on a body part would contribute a small amount of encumbrance, similar to some mutations, except for bionics which are small enough (e.g. Integrated Dosimeter). Each body part would get a small amount of leeway, enough for a few simple bionics, but to become a full cyborg would cause quite a problem and taking each and every bionic would be nearly impossible.

A more complicated but, to me at least, more satisfying and realistic method would be something actually modifying the characters body. As body parts have bionics installed, their health bar would be converted to “integrity” or something along those lines, the idea being that limbs and flesh are being replaced with steel. Integrity doesn’t heal on it’s own or with medical attention, but can be repaired with a welder, or probably far more advanced tools. Balance would consist of requiring a great deal of time or special materials for repairs, or maybe even limiting repairs to special machines found in hospitals and military buildings. Alloy plating would also cease to give an armor rating, and would instead give some free integrity to the part it’s attached to. Steel parts would also be far more durable than flesh, but might be more vulnerable to electricity or acid causing the player to become more of a glass cannon.

The two systems could both be in place, and either one could also include the ability for bionics to prevent mutation. E.G, your superalloy head plating prevents you from growing horns, and they are painfully removed if you install it while having horns. This helps to prevent overpoweredness by limiting the ability to go into both bionics and mutations

[Aluminumfoil]

The idea of using encumbrance above a threshold has a lot of promise and seems doable. The choice to be a ponderous, lumbering cyber-monster, or have fewer bionics but retain your mobility and humanity, appeals to me.

[druidniam]

Have you checked this out since we’re talking about it:

CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA