# Beating a dead horse, crafting full auto

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [September 21, 2015, 10:58am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569 "2015-09-21T10:58:32Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/21 "2015-09-26T15:07:21Z")

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Exactly. It’s not likely to be gamebreaking (burst fire tends to be best with higher-damage, higher-accuracy stuff), and we’ve already demonstrated it’s not unrealistic.

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**Author:** ![kevin.granade](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/kevin.granade/32/1316_2.png) [@kevin.granade](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/kevin.granade)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/22 "2015-09-26T19:35:23Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> we’ve already demonstrated it’s not unrealistic.

No, you haven’t. You’ve consistently ignored my point that people talking about Stens or similar being ‘easy’ to make is in the context of a machine shop with significant special-purpose power tools, and a nearly unlimited access to construction materials.

You assert that this incredibly sketchy pdf indicates that a Sten is constructable with hand tools. Do we even have THAT plan’s requirements in the game?  
Angle grinder? Nope  
Arc welder? yes  
Dremmel? nope.  
Metal files? Nope  
Drill press? Nope  
Steel tube for the receiver? kinda, we have steel tubes, but it needs to be an undamaged steel tube of just the right dimensions, which we usually don’t care about.  
Steel box section for magazine well? nope  
Sheet metal for trigger housing? yes  
pipe for stock? yes  
Barrel collars? Nope  
10mm aluminum plate? nope  
35mm mild steel bar stock? nope  
Stock for the bolt? Nope  
Barrel? (not even in the plans) nope  
System for making this monstrosity as unreliable as it by rights, should be? nope

I’ve said for months that if if someone wants to fill in the machine shop content and make it a requirement we can use that as a prerequisite for making more advanced firearms, see [http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=10444.msg236017#msg236017](http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=10444.msg236017#msg236017)

> At some point in the future we might build up tooling to the point where automatic weapons manufacture becomes feasible, at that point we can revisit this.

Thus far no one has taken me up on that, instead people are just repeating over and over again that because someone posted a pdf on the internet that insinuates but never actually says that their plans will make a working Sten, it implies that it's reasonable for a survivor with random pieces of metal scrap and a few hand tools to make working automatic weapons.

Also, I KNOW that if I allowed the damn Sten it wouldn’t resolve a damn thing, if I allowed a “scrap metal Sten”, people would pretend it’s an actual Sten and start arguing that this other gun is just a simple as a Sten, so that should go in too.  
I’m drawing the line somewhere nice and clear, no machine shop means no automatic weapons. If you want to sort out the actual list of tools and materials needed to make a legit gun (not this bullshit internet deathtrap), we can talk, but I’m not going to ok anything short of that.

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**Author:** ![SkyeAuroline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@SkyeAuroline](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SkyeAuroline)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/23 "2015-09-26T20:08:13Z")

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Can I just ask what the purpose of the existing homemade guns is, Kevin? They’re universally inferior to real guns, which are incredibly easily acquired. And now that you’ve removed the gunpowder recipe, you can’t even use them before you find ammo (which, 99% of the time, is either with a gun or in close proximity to one). I’ve NEVER used any of them except the .308 pipe rifle, and even that, I ditched within an in-game day because it was so useless.

Also, if you’re gonna cite the barrel as a problem, it’s a problem for all of the other homemade guns, particularly the survivor carbine and the various handguns. In fact, with the “no machine shop” line, pretty much anything that isn’t a straight-up pipe rifle or [maybe a slightly more complicated pipe shotgun](http://imgur.com/a/N42xb) is impossible. How does the .308 pipe rifle have a 4-round magazine in, you know, a pipe? (note: the linked shotgun is NOT actually safe to use, and I’d never even start to recommend using it as a basis, but with the proper pipe, it might be doable).

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**Author:** ![Xfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e95f7d/32.png) [@Xfin](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Xfin)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/24 "2015-09-26T23:35:57Z")

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Being so picky over one that while might start a chain-reaction, doesn’t make sense when a lot of other recipe don’t make much sense

Wouldn’t a ‘machine workshop’ in the end just be a rare building in towns that functions something like the cvd machine in some labs?

On that note… (passively wonders any reasons for not having revolver based ammo craftable with blackpowder…)

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/25 "2015-09-26T23:42:17Z")

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.\_.

Okay, any one have additional sources concerning methods of production for this gun? I have the feeling that even if this is provided, the “no, just no” veto won’t be changed.

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**Author:** ![DG123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/54ee81/32.png) [@DG123](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DG123)\
**Post date:** [September 26, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/26 "2015-09-26T23:51:06Z")

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I have to say I find it odd if the gunpowder crafting was removed.

I too find that crafting guns is useless because I have no ammo.

Surely SOME kind of explosive propellant for a cartridge should be craftable?

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**Author:** ![SkyeAuroline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@SkyeAuroline](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SkyeAuroline)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:15am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/27 "2015-09-27T00:15:09Z")

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[quote=“Random\_dragon, post:25, topic:10569”].\_.

Okay, any one have additional sources concerning methods of production for this gun? I have the feeling that even if this is provided, the “no, just no” veto won’t be changed.[/quote]

Still on the “sketchy Internet source” side of things, but…

[Building a STEN with an angle grinder, dremel, drill, and welder](http://www.mediafire.com/view/5v4852yage8d8c5)

Dremels are incredibly common. EVERY hardware store carries them, a large number (I’d almost say the majority) own at least one. That’s not your constraining factor.

Angle grinders are somewhat less common, but about as common as circular saws would be.

I don’t see anything that wouldn’t be reasonable to obtain here, and the material needs aren’t even incredibly specific.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/28 "2015-09-27T00:21:41Z")

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So basically we need to add angle grinders and dremel tools, which is consistent with Kevin’s statement regarding what the other sketchy PDF requires.

The need for different types of metal parts would be notable. But for fuck’s sake we can hand-machine an array of different metal items in-game. Differently-shaped pieces of metal is hardly out of reach.

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**Author:** ![SkyeAuroline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@SkyeAuroline](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SkyeAuroline)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/29 "2015-09-27T00:27:12Z")

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[quote=“Random\_dragon, post:28, topic:10569”]So basically we need to add angle grinders and dremel tools, which is consistent with Kevin’s statement regarding what the other sketchy PDF requires.

The need for different types of metal parts would be notable. But for fuck’s sake we can hand-machine an array of different metal items in-game. Differently-shaped pieces of metal is hardly out of reach.[/quote]

Yep. If we can hand machine this (see: survivor carbine), then we shouldn’t have trouble.

![](http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/attachment-2.jpg)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/30 "2015-09-27T00:36:20Z")

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Even though it is lever-action, not semi-auto. Damn near every gun has “semi-auto” in the stat block due to poor coding, designed solely to tell the player if a pistol is a revolver or semi-auto.

I should note that Kevin has objected to the “if we can craft X, it makes no sense that we can’t craft Y” argument before, which the survivor carbine being the big example pretty much since I first added the Sten. \>\_\>

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**Author:** ![DG123](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/54ee81/32.png) [@DG123](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/DG123)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/31 "2015-09-27T00:44:50Z")

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Actually, wouldn’t it make most sense to have Metal Storm type weapons as the hand crafted ones?

Or at least as well as?

We can make a coilgun but it sucks.

Metal Storm guns use electric current to trigger the bullets. Which are stacked in the barrels, and there are multiple barrels.

So, you’d be using a cluster of pipes, some wire, possibly heating elements or something like that, and various other circuity. With normal bullets, not nails.

These guns have no moving parts.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/32 "2015-09-27T01:16:43Z")

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Caseless ammo is also a glorious clusterfuck IRL. That reminds me, did any military ever actually buy that Metal Storm device?

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**Author:** ![SkyeAuroline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@SkyeAuroline](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SkyeAuroline)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/33 "2015-09-27T01:36:58Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> Caseless ammo is also a glorious clusterfuck IRL. That reminds me, did any military ever actually buy that Metal Storm device?

Nope. And the company went bankrupt 3 years ago.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/34 "2015-09-27T01:43:18Z")

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Rivtech in a nutshell. :V

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**Author:** ![Arek\_PL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b77776/32.png) [@Arek\_PL](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Arek_PL)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 5:50am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/35 "2015-09-27T05:50:09Z")

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the only thing what stops player from manufacturing nearly every firearm in the game is rifled barrel only we need fancy tools from factory and turn it to run on vehicle energy (tank what is factory and home on wheels?) so we need factory for new tools and insane power supply with huge amout of time

alslo every manufactured non shotgun weapon should have smaller accuracy and/or range

but what is the point of creating guns if its so end game? only use what i see is to make standarization of your folowers weapons

metal storms are used on few ships for AA defence but reloading one is realy hard after seconds of firing you have half hour of reloading so even old zu-23 is better (loading it is just something about 14 seconds for trained crew)

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**Author:** ![SenorOcho](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/senorocho/32/491_2.png) [@SenorOcho](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/SenorOcho)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/36 "2015-09-27T06:31:14Z")

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If a rifled barrel is that big of a deal, what stops a survivor from jury-rigging something using a barrel from another gun?

(If I can dream, I’d like to see weapon construction not terribly dissimilar from vehicle construction…)

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**Author:** ![Thwap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4af34b/32.png) [@Thwap](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Thwap)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 7:23am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/37 "2015-09-27T07:23:08Z")

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> [@Xfin](#):
>
> Being so picky over one that while might start a chain-reaction, doesn’t make sense when a lot of other recipe don’t make much sense

I didn’t think I’d be able to get these roller drums onto that schoolbus, but then I found some duct tape and I was good to go. I shall call it the Realism Mobile.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 10:22am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/38 "2015-09-27T10:22:29Z")

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Hmm. Alternatively, one could solve the issue by repurposing the “craftable gunpowder pack” mod and adding a Sten recipe to it.

Good god those pipe SMG recipes are absurd though.

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**Author:** ![Dampe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@Dampe](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Dampe)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/39 "2015-09-27T19:47:48Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> Caseless ammo is also a glorious clusterfuck IRL. That reminds me, did any military ever actually buy that Metal Storm device?

The issue with caseless rounds (and if you’re looking for a good example of this, read up on the H&K G11) is that a lot of the heat that is created when firing a weapon is lost when the shell ejects. (Not the most technical or the most correct way of explaining it, but it gets the point across.) Without there being shells to eject, the weapon starts to heat up fast. This in turn can lead to rounds “cooking off” before they leave the barrel.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/beating-a-dead-horse-crafting-full-auto/10569/40 "2015-09-27T19:54:22Z")

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That’s the main reason I’ve cited, yeah.

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