Attribute changes in .7

[youtoo]

All of the changes were not directly related to range. See below. Perception seems buggy as well. Dexterity now looks like by far the best attribute.

1. at 12 perception you get to 0 penalty on ranged. At 14. no improvement. So is there a point in raising perception above 12? Does it do anything?
2. dexterity now seems like the best attribute. It raises something for each point, not every 2 points.
3. intelligence only seems to help reading speed and no longer helps learning skills. The note says it helps with crafting and using bionics. Can one of the developers tell us how much. Does this still help with learning? I tested a character with 14 learning and fast learning and he seemed to get to 2 survival from butchering about the same pace. I would think that if intelligence stopped helping with raising skills this would not go up as fast. I have not tested this with 8 int and/or getting rid of fast learning.

[Killa_Croc]

At the moment it seems like raising perception past 12 is more or less, as stated by someone else, a cushion against any penalties to perception. Not the best use in terms of a point spending imo. As for intelligence I believe it is suppose to reduce skill rust. I’d give a definitive answer if I was not at work. Also I would say reading speed is a pretty big player in learning skills. Especially the not so common, in the sense of how many there are not rarity, books that raise your skills to higher levels.

With that said. I prefer these changes. For once I considered not throwing every point into stats and picking traits other than robust genetics.

[i2amroy]

0 “penalty” on ranged means that you are shooting perfectly every time, i.e. the only missing is being caused by the inaccuracy of the weapon itself. The reason that it was changed was because previously when you had a ranged “bonus” what you were actually doing was somehow warping the universe to make your weapons shoot better then was physically possible.

And yeah, this makes PER much less useful, we are currently looking at some things to potentially increase it’s usefulness back up to the level of some of the other stats.

[Darkfyre]

I made a suggestion regarding the value of PER here:

http://smf.cataclysmdda.com/index.php?topic=2584.0

[youtoo]

you guys are not getting at the points Im making

1. how is raising perception above 12 a ‘cushion’ against a penalty. The penalty is 0 at 12. All perception has done is improve your range bonus. if the max bonus is 0 (starts negative) then is there any reason at all to raise perception above 12. Not an ‘i guess’. Does anyone know? BTW, where is the source code on attributes? Anyone know what folders? Ill look at it and check.

2. So does anyone know for sure what intelligence does now. It looks like it NO LONGER helps with training. It always helped with reading speed. I see references to crafting and adding bionics. I see NO references to skill rust. I just see a ‘guess’. Any developers know?

3. again Dex looks like the best skill now. you get a bohus for each point, not every two.

Im retyping what I already typed. Does anyone know? If not,can someone give me an idea where the attribute code is?

[youtoo]

Posted this in the general forum and got several responses unrelated to what I am asking. I am not sure if this is a total bug, but the changes are unclear. So posting here because I am hoping Developers are more likely to see it.

first off, does anyone know where the source code is for attributes? I can look at it myself.

Perception:

1. Is there any reason to raise perception above 12? At 12 you have a range penalty of 0. I dont see a bonus above that. Does perception do ANYTHING else other than what is listed? No ‘i guess’. anyone know the code?

Intelligence:
2. Intelligence no longer seems to improve training speed. Now it only improves reading speed. It used to do both. Is this correct? Or was this just removed from the menu? If so, why was this change made?
3. I see vague references to Intelligence helping with skill creation and with using Bionics. Anyone have the formulas? And how much increasing helps and what it does? Again I can look at the code.
4. Someone ‘guessed’ and said that intelligence helps against skill rust. Any non Guess?

Dexterity:
5. This now looks like the best attribute. You get improvement to 3 things with 1 point increase. Used to be 2 points. So it looks like Perception and Intelligence were nerfed and this was significantly improved.

Strength:
6. this does not appear to have been changed. Can anyone confirm.

as I said, if someone can point me to where to look in the source code, I can check myself and report back.

[kevin.granade]

[quote=“youtoo, post:8, topic:2452”]you guys are not getting at the points Im making

1. how is raising perception above 12 a ‘cushion’ against a penalty. The penalty is 0 at 12. All perception has done is improve your range bonus. if the max bonus is 0 (starts negative) then is there any reason at all to raise perception above 12. Not an ‘i guess’. Does anyone know? BTW, where is the source code on attributes? Anyone know what folders? Ill look at it and check.[/quote]
   The penalty people mentioned is a penalty to perception, which it’s quite easy to acquire by e.g. the glare condition, or encumbering your eyes with headgear, or mutations. These reduce your effective perception, so if you want to operate at peak effectiveness even when impaired, it’s worthwhile to have a buffer.

3. again Dex looks like the best skill now. you get a bohus for each point, not every two.

So? What is the point of the skills being “balanced” against each other? Take less perception if you want, but it’s a zero-sum issue, taking more dex can’t compensate for less perception, and for that matter neither can more skill.

[FunsizeNinja123]

Perception does nothing now, but might be used in stealth later.

[Nickboom]

Kevin I think we all mean that all stats need to have the same level of usefulness Perc is only good for ranged and spotting traps (which are already rare enough) compaired to str, str gives melee damage, carry weight (one of the most useful things), health (THE most important stat), and resistance to sickness.

[1942rob]

4. Intelligence does help against skill rust, if enabled in the options.

[kevin.granade]

Please don’t repost the same thread multiple times, if people are interested they’ll participate in the first thread.

[Raital]

snip

1. Yes, as a buffer to gas mask. Gas mask encumbrance is 4 to the eyes. 4 points of eye encumbrance = -4 perception. Less than 10 perception = You die to invisible landmines, therefore to permanently wear a gas mask, you need 14 perception. Edit: Otherwise no, there’s no point having an effective perception above 12 anymore.

2. Wrong. It never sped up learning. 0.5 lied. Besides, in 0.5 learning speed would not have mattered, AT ALL. You got a pool of XP, and once that hit 0, your learning is 0. XP pool determined speed of learning. XP pool rate of replenishment depended on morale. Therefore morale determined rate of learning. Therefore a mp3 player was all you needed to learn fast, not intelligence.
   It was changed because in 0.6 learning was switched to the focus system. The focus system is less deceitful than the previous system as the previous system fooled players into thinking that intelligence was important for learning when it was not. Focus is your % rate of learning. It was changed to make learning less artificial than the “you got 0 XP in your pool, therefore you learn nothing.” Now it’s obvious that morale is what helps you learn fast, instead of being sneaky and making players think that because they have a high intelligence they’re going to learn quickly.

3. The formulas are in the code. If you indicate you’re willing to look at the code, ctrl+F it. Start looking in game.cpp, it’s where I would look first. (Edit: It’s in crafting.cpp, lines 1562 and down (was curious myself)) To save time, intelligence barely helps with crafting or bionics. The difference between installation difficulty for a 20 INT char and a 4 INT char is miniscule. I know because I’ve run a 20 INT char and a 4 INT char, and the percentages were pretty similar. I failed recipes slightly more with 4 INT when I was crafting recipes with difficulties equal to my skill, but if my skill exceeded the difficulty, there was no problem. Skill > Intelligence.

4. Intelligence does not help against skill rust, if you’re playing 7.1 stable. Code was introduced with the intention to make skill rust dependent on intelligence and is in the nightly builds. I have not determined whether it works as intended or not as I play with skill rust capped. INT affecting skill rust is an optional setting in the game. You will find it in the skill rust setting as an option.

5. Three things, yes, but depending on your build, two of them are worthless. Dex was not changed, exception being for changing ranged bonus to ranged penalty, same as perception. If you play throwing characters or martial artists, sure, dex would be a great attribute. If you play ranged, set perception and dex to 12 and max out strength. Otherwise, skill > DEX.

6. Strength has not changed. It was by far the best attribute the whole time at any rate. If you want a challenge, play a 4 STR character. DEX can be replaced by skill (melee and unarmed). STR cannot be replaced. It’s your HP, it’s your carry weight, it’s your melee damage bonus, it’s your resistance to disease. It is the difference between dying from a little bit of smoke and not giving a crap. High STR chars can guzzle unclean water from rain without purifying without getting a stomachache. Having more strength is never a bad thing.

In summary, for priorities from a min-max perspective.
[Ranged]
PER, DEX = 12, STR as high as possible, INT 4.
[Melee]
STR as high as possible, DEX 8, PER 10 (landmines), INT 4.
[Martial Artist]
STR as high as possible, DEX as high as you can afford, PER 10 (landmines), INT 4.
[Throwing]
STR as high as possible, DEX as high as you can afford, PER 10 (landmines), INT 4.
[Crafting]
STR as high as possible (carry weight), DEX 8, PER 10 (landmines), INT 4.

INT < Everything
PER > DEX in importance (landmines)
PER = DEX for ranged (only up to 12)
Skill > INT, DEX
STR > Everything

This has been my experience with wildly different builds.
Edit: Final note. 4 INT gives a character 120% read time. Fast reader turns that into 96%. If you’re just reading for morale, stick to 4 INT or lower books, have fast reader, and read romance novels and the like. +3 points to distribute.

[darth_servo]

Eff that.

STR 8
DEX 8
INT 14
PER 8

I’m a scientist, dammit!

[MarkB]

[quote=“darth_servo, post:16, topic:2452”]Eff that.

STR 8
DEX 8
INT 14
PER 8

I’m a scientist, dammit![/quote]

Judging by the lab research reports, most professional scientists in CDDA used INT as their dump stat.

[youtoo]

@kevin…

Where is the code for the attributes? Im not complaining about the change, I am trying to understand them. Ill take a look at them and post what I think they do now. (assuming I can understand them)

1. Dexterity: Not complaining. Just trying to interpret what Im seeing. It looks like dex went from being the least valuable to the most valuable attriubte. Does anyone else agree? This is a big change.

2. Perception. Still confused. At 12 perception you have a 0 range penalty. What else does perception influence other than range penalty? I think you implied that as you raise perception, it also reduces the affect of glare.

3. Intelligence: So intelligence no longer speeds up skill learning? How does it help with crafting and bionics? Again, if you guys can point me to the code, I think I can look at it and provide a summary.

I like to understand game mechanics in games like this. I had a certain build I did before. I went for an archer. That doesn’t seem to be a good way to start. Got my but kicked. I think a better start is to raise dex to 14. However, Id like to understand the game mechanics.

I think if I can post how attributes work, it may make it easier for people to make characters. There appears to be a big game balance change from .6 to .71. Not complaining. Hell I have not played long enough to dissect the changes to know if I like them or not. In order to determine that, I need to understand it.

BTW, I see this as helping with the beta testing. Instead of just guessing and assuming what stuff does, if we understand the mechanics better we can try different builds, test them out and then give feedback. I am not attacking you.

[darth_servo]

Judging by the lab research reports, most professional scientists in CDDA used INT as their dump stat.

This made me lol.

[i2amroy]

Where is the code for the attributes? Im not complaining about the change, I am trying to understand them. Ill take a look at them and post what I think they do now. (assuming I can understand them)

The code for attributes is spread throughout the game’s code, showing up wherever said attributes would have an effect. If you want to find all the places and attribute has an effect do a search for “per_cur” (or dex_cur, or whatever attribute you want). That should bring up every time in the code that attribute either effects something or is effected by something.

1. Dexterity: Not complaining. Just trying to interpret what Im seeing. It looks like dex went from being the least valuable to the most valuable attriubte. Does anyone else agree? This is a big change.

Dexterity hasn't really had that much changed about it (in fact the only recent changes involving dex that I know of have all been nerfs). Rather other things have been nerfed more then DEX has.

2. Perception. Still confused. At 12 perception you have a 0 range penalty. What else does perception influence other than range penalty? I think you implied that as you raise perception, it also reduces the affect of glare.

When under 12 PER it also effects ranged accuracy, and it allows you to see traps better. Other then that... not much (though when the stealth system goes in this will probably have quite a few more effects).

3. Intelligence: So intelligence no longer speeds up skill learning? How does it help with crafting and bionics? Again, if you guys can point me to the code, I think I can look at it and provide a summary.

INT has large effects on read times and how you interact with computers (as well as programming turrets/manhacks). It also has a few other effects as well. It doesn't effect focus except through read times, though it does effect skill rust if you have that setting turned on.

[xLemor]

Perception used to be all you needed to be a good gun user.
If you started with 14 perception you were almost automatically a firearm master, assuming that you had 1-2 lvls in firearms.
By the time you had 4-5 firearms skills it was near impossible to miss a headshot on a target far awaywith a mere handgun (sniping targets out of the screen that you couldnt see with a usp .45 anyone? :p).
It is good to see that they somewhat balanced it

[Darkfyre]

With a very low INT, you will also fail crafting at equal skill (ie, your skill equals the difficulty) a lot IIRC

Also, with a super low int you will basically have to take drugs to do anything involving computers, electronics and bionics.

Also, stay away from mines if you have 4 int or [glow=red,2,300]they[/glow] will get you

[Iosyn]

[quote=“MarkB, post:17, topic:2452”][quote=“darth_servo, post:16, topic:2452”]Eff that.

STR 8
DEX 8
INT 14
PER 8

I’m a scientist, dammit![/quote]

Judging by the lab research reports, most professional scientists in CDDA used INT as their dump stat.[/quote]

How did you think they got the job when the economy is so bad?
They wasted it all on traits like Pretty, Skilled liar, crossdresser and CHA.