Additional materials for armor construction

[TheZoneWizard]

Adding 2 in game materials, Nylon and Titanium.

Also adding a distinction in tailoring to make leather into 2 options A) Light leather B) Hard Leather.
This has been a long standing contention of mine to make tailoring better. This change would branch leather into 2 grouping forms. With potential to make either transform into the other with chemicals and hard work

[darktoes]

I’d argue that nylon would fall under plastic and titanium would fall under superalloy or possibly hardsteel, but that’s for devs to decide.

The hardness of leather can be modified through various treatments and through use. Even then, hardened leather is quite rare in modern times. That said, the thickness of leather is far more important, you’d be better off having garment leather and thick/strong leather.

[kuros]

That said, the thickness of leather is far more important, you’d be better off having garment leather and thick/strong leather.

There’s already boiled leather armor and plated leather armor. I’d like to see piecemeal versions of these, much like with armored leather. At first, I thought this might be unnecessarily completist, but the ability to choose the armor/warmth of each body part is pretty important, and leather vambraces, gauntlets, greaves, etc. would be way better for my current character.

[darktoes]

Leather vambraces and gauntlets do exist. Greaves don’t but there is leather pants and leather chaps. Or a sleeveless leather trenchcoat, a leather apron, stuff like that. Other than dedicated leather leg armor, which seems unnecessary, I don’t know what else you could add.

[mlangsdorf]

Craftable light leather leg armor would actually be nice. There aren’t many good leg armor options before hard leg guards, and those aren’t trivial to craft. I would be good to have the equivalent of leather vambraces for the legs at Tailoring 2 or 3.

[kuros]

Yes, they’re already available using the “garment leather” level that was discussed above. I was suggesting that there be “boiled leather” and “plated leather” versions of these as well.

[darktoes]

Ingame there’s only leather, but there are different material thicknesses and steel plating to make it more armory.

I don’t think it’s a particularly necessary addition, but if people want it it’s probably worth it.

[TheZoneWizard]

I don’t actually care what is available in game. I want as I requested for reasons I wrote. Nylon is a form of plastic but distinctive to be a separate material from what would be in game. For example: you wouldn’t grab a plastic jerrycan and break it down and say Nylon!

I believe adding distinctions as time moves along to the game. The more detail to the game we shall have.

As for leather. It has bothered me a long time(over a year) that tailoring doesn’t have the distinction. Light and Heavy are easier to program in this case. The idea would be to simply add more layers/pieces to a garment to make it it “thick”.

Hard leather is easy to make and light would be the prefabricated modern clothing. Both have their place and adding layers can bulk it up. But the important part is to remember that light and fast is what I’m interested in. Hard leather can be lamelar as well to make a garment that is still mobile and light…well a heavy “light”. Something under 10 encumbrance. I only have my toon wear under 10 items. So this distinction in leather is important.

Titanium is feather light. I have items made out of it. Easy to work with and pretty strong. Bio friendly(can be used inside the body and fuses with bone). Heat resistant and durable plus water proof.

You can add layers of the stuff and not gain any encumbrance even in real life. Humor me. Don’t compare it to the games super alloy again. Seriously, super alloy in game is closer to platinum or some other heavy metal. Use a search engine will ya Dark? Startin to seem trollish when I come to the forum…sheesh >_>

[darktoes]

Having nylon as a separate material to plastic is probably fine, but that means we need to add special materials for half a dozen other plastics as well. Which is also fine, but it’s a lot of work and I don’t see it being overly helpful. Extra realistic perhaps, but not actually better in any way.

I don’t actually see how separating leather into soft and hard is going to make any difference whatsoever. Like you said, most modernly available leather is soft garment leather and you can easily layer it and treat it into armor, just like the boiled/plated leather armor recipes do. I don’t see that having to process the leather separately for a handful of recipes is actually going to make anything better. Lamellar armor already exists in game, at least in the medieval items mod.

Titanium is around half the weight of steel and a little bit weaker. It sure as shit isn’t “feather light”, and it isn’t some magic metal that will make super strong armor without encumbering you. I need you to understand that the thinner and lighter you make a material, the weaker it gets and the less it can stop. Stronger materials will remain stronger and SOMETIMES you can mix materials to get an overall stronger material, but it still needs to be of a decent thickness to protect you. Even then, if you want full coverage to protect all your sensitive joints, you need even MORE material to cover them, which surprise surprise, means more material. Which means more weight, and more encumbrance, because you now have plates of metal/leather/kevlar/whatever hanging over your arms whenever you move.

Well I’m not sure where you got the idea of superalloy being like platinum from, but I’ll humour you, and we can examine it’s characteristics. It’s light and strong, like titanium, expensive, like titanium, and used inside the body in bionics, like titanium. Holy shit… I bet it’s titanium. Or something very similar, probably a high end alloy involving zinc and titanium, like some common real life superalloys?

Look, if it was so easy to make amazing armor with a few sheets of titanium someone would do it. I’m sure. And that stupid tuxedo just has a kevlar vest, so don’t bother bringing it up again.

[mlangsdorf]

Titanium is 60-70% as dense as iron or steel (~4.4 g/cm3 verssu ~ 7.8 g/cm3). It’s lighter than steel, but hardly feather light. Most titanium alloys that you’d use for armor about 25% better yield and ultimate tensile strength than most steels, but kevlar has 4x the yield and ultimate tensile strengths, and most steel alloys have much higher Brinell hardness values.

The US Navy tested some 0.625" titanium plates in the 1970s (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a800063.pdf) and considered them roughly equivalent to steel plates that were 0.31" to 0.39", depending on the type of steel, for the purpose of resisting 0.30 and 0.50 caliber AP rounds. Assuming most steel in C:DDA is homogeneous, that would suggest that titanium alloy armor won’t save much weight: lighter per unit thickness, but has to be thicker. Better grade/more advanced titanium alloys might improve that some, but even half the weight of steel armor seems a stretch.

[TheZoneWizard]

Actually Titanium is 40% lighter than it’s equal of steel. “Super Alloy” is a generic name used in the game and I gave 1 example due to the heavy nature of it in game, that could be what the alloy may be. Which would be reasonable to assume if you weren’t trolling me in every thread.

In any event, I keep bringing up titanium for a lamelar style of armor as I am confident it would be a good compliment with kevlar. Kevlar is bulky and although plates of titanium would add weight. The armor would half the bulk of a kevlar garment. More weight; half encumbrance. You guys jumping all over my ideas about armor piercing rounds of the highest caliber and how it won’t stop those type of ammunition is really not what I’m even discussing as I mentioned before. Mitigating damage. Not making you impervious.

Besides which. It isn’t for reality and it is to also assumes you can find more materials of this nature when you have no one to stop you from finding and taking whatever you need. By the way, the #1 reason nobody makes super armor is because of cost. Period. That Tuxedo is woven with other materials. Also look up…again STF body armor, for treatment as an extra component that helps mitigate damage.

Kevlar isn’t the best. Nor is it the only. It is reasonable to assume it would have compromise in usage with other materials folks. Armor is not all about pure stopping power either. In the game we can fudge the physicals like they already are fudged.

[darktoes]

Actually Titanium is 40% lighter than it’s equal of steel.

That’s what “60-70% as dense as iron or steel” means. If it’s only 60% as dense, it will be 40% lighter.

“Super Alloy” is a generic name used in the game and I gave 1 example due to the heavy nature of it in game, that could be what the alloy may be.

Let’s just ignore the name of the metal and everything it’s used for and pretend it’s heavy, even though it’s actually lighter than steel ingame. Do you actually play Cataclysm?

In any event, I keep bringing up titanium for a lamelar style of armor as I am confident it would be a good compliment with kevlar. Kevlar is bulky and although plates of titanium would add weight.

If you look here, you’ll notice that even a titanium alloy has a LOWER strength to weight ratio than kevlar. Titanium armor equivalent to kevlar armor would be heavier and even more encumbering.

Besides which. It isn’t for reality and it is to also assumes you can find more materials of this nature when you have no one to stop you from finding and taking whatever you need. By the way, the #1 reason nobody makes super armor is because of cost. Period. That Tuxedo is woven with other materials. Also look up…again STF body armor, for treatment as an extra component that helps mitigate damage.

Yeah an STF treatment can make stronger armor. Except it can’t be used on titanium, so you’d be better off making a kevlar vest and treating it than using titanium. You could easily assume all kevlar ingame is treated since it’s set in the not-very-distant future, and you can usually take a few 9mm rounds to the vest before it even shows signs of damage.

Kevlar isn’t the best. Nor is it the only. It is reasonable to assume it would have compromise in usage with other materials folks. Armor is not all about pure stopping power either. In the game we can fudge the physicals like they already are fudged.

Kevlar is pretty up there though, or it wouldn’t be so heavily used. Sure, you could make armor out of carbon nanotubes if you want to bankrupt your entire country to outfit one soldier. If you want. It’s not like the player could make anything like that ingame anyway.
Slowing bullets is great, especially if you have nearby medical support. It doesn’t make any difference when you’re alone fighting zombies though. If you want light armor just use the light survivor suit, it’s exactly what you want and no amount of titanium will make it better.

[TheZoneWizard]

Spider Silk then. Mutant spiders already exist. The silk could be harvested and spun with a loom.

Technically it would be higher than both by density and light as well.

Nano-tubes could be made in batches in labs. Gather enough and use them as plates. They are time consuming to make. But companies do make them.

“Do you even play cat?”. I do. But apparently I just do not obsess.Not even Kevin puts in that much time. I do it for down time. As I come here for something to keep me busy for 10 minutes. I also try not nit pick the hell out of people for grins. The link for Specific Strength was reasonable though. But before that. Not especially constructive.

[darktoes]

Spider silk is interesting, but I don’t see it being practical unless the player has the mutation them-self. It would be pretty awesome though.

Carbon Nanotubes are a possibility, but I suspect they’d be beyond the player to make.

I don’t obsess over the game either, I just have a decent memory and check my facts before I tell them. None of this was particularly constructive, but that’s just because you were wrong pretty much the entire time.

[TheZoneWizard]

Heh…no. I wasn’t. For a video game, I wasn’t. I wasn’t too interested in reality when I came up with half the crap I talk about. But no matter.

Mutant spider seems reasonable if you take into account we can find spider nests in buildings and in the woods. Easy to harvest…but easy to catch on fire…So maybe some debuf for fire?

Just watched a youtube vid about a company that makes the nanotubes by the trash bag full. Seems pretty simple in small factories and chemical labs. Soooo…maybe make a new building? I dunno bout you, but I likes ma arse new buildings!

Any modders paying attention?? xD

[darktoes]

You sure referenced reality a lot for someone who isn’t interested in it with regards to a game.

Nanotubes sounds like a lot of work to add one minor item. I think it’d be easier to just take a stab at adding more hightech armors, like the RM13 armor.

[TheZoneWizard]

I use a reference like anyone else. But when it comes to this game? I tend to have running ideas. I like to pull reality references to help other shape the idea. If it sucks. I’m good with that. But if you can suspend disbelief long enough, it’s all good!

I mean, I like Star Wars. But walking outa the theatre doesn’t make me go “I WANNA BE A JEDI FOO!” lol

They just use reality references and realism to suspend disbelief like the game. In the future try not to be so cynical and ask if the collage of references make you go…“Hmmm, I suppose it could work”. One better, think like yer watching MacGuyver. Total bull$h!t right? But it looks cool. =D

[darktoes]

Yes but most of your arguments implied that my grasp of reality was incorrect. Something about “use a search engine?”

[TheZoneWizard]

Riiiight…and you weren’t trolling my threads, being a tad over critical. When I mentioned use a search engine, you did and found a decent page, thanks!. You don’t much like my opinions that differ. Everythings fine. I can let it slide, can you?

I still like Titanium for options. But reviewing that wiki chart makes me interested in the Titanium Alloy, Spider Silk and that Carbon epoxy one looks interesting.

Do you code the game? Anyone who does, should consider the spider silk while using a loom to spin it.

[darktoes]

I wasn’t trolling in the slightest. I just take offense when someone implies I’m wrong about something. My issue was that you were making assumptions and saying things that were outright wrong without making any effort to back them up at all.

As I said, titanium is (basically) already ingame as Superalloy.

Spider silk would be neat, but I’m not sure of the processing techniques. If you want it to happen I’d recommend doing some research and making a writeup on here or Github, then someone might pick it up.