Above ground z-levels, why are they not in yet?

[Austupaio]

I don’t know what limitations you guys are facing and to be honest, thread is sort of messy so I may have missed an answer but.

Why don’t you just do it the dwarf fortress way and show all levels equally, as in the above screenshot, but with the symbols considerably dimmed?

[ejseto]

Likewise for the code which saves monsters, clears them, and then semi-randomly re-adds them based on where the stairs are.

I’m guessing this is why turrets mysteriously spawn clones if I save outside a bunker or in a lab?

I already said I did it and gave up from the idea as it does not look good, because if you draw ground layer any level above just looks like it’s on the ground floor.

What if you make the lower z-levels “grayed-out?” There’s clearly no way to make things smaller since the game already uses the smallest display units available, but changing the color would be a reasonable alternative. It could keep successively graying out as you get higher and higher until everything is black and white and you’re like “Is that npc friendly pink or hostile red… can’t tell, not taking chances…”

Huh, didn’t notice the poster above made the same suggestion. Guess that’s what I get for not reading the whole thread.

[Vorpal2]

Another image starring Basement Bear™

Basement Bear is the only good thing that has come of this thread. I would like to see more of him.

[GlyphGryph]

LazyCat, I already provided you with a list of the stuff we’d like to see that the current system doesn’t handle well enough. Others have given quite effective examples.

We want a 3d game. We want everything that comes with a 3d game. Being an ASCII game in no way precludes this being a 3d game, it just limits our ability to communicate a 3d display. That’s fine. We’re not looking for a 3d display, we’re looking for 3d mechanics. If you don’t want, or care about, 3d mechanics, that’s fine too - but many people do. So that’s where we are going. And your stuff isn’t good enough for that, so no, it’s not getting in.

[LazyCat]

What if you make the lower z-levels “grayed-out?” There’s clearly no way to make things smaller since the game already uses the smallest display units available, but changing the color would be a reasonable alternative. It could keep successively graying out as you get higher and higher until everything is black and white and you’re like “Is that npc friendly pink or hostile red… can’t tell, not taking chances…”

Both graying out and using different size fonts is possible, but don’t expect to see it in vanilla build because they will stick to Linux and console graphics, so they are stuck with very limited color resolution and single size font. The main reason however you will never, ever see multiple z-levels in vanilla build, the way they are supposedly planning to do it, is because processing even one additional level beside the one player is on would monstrously cripple the game speed.

When you go into missile silo, do you really care you can not see levels above or below? When you go into temple, do you really care you can’t throw a grenade down the stairs? Millions of other games don’t care about it, which makes it ludicrous it’s somehow not good enough for this game with ASCII graphics.

[LazyCat]

[quote=“GlyphGryph, post:74, topic:1229”]LazyCat, I already provided you with a list of the stuff we’d like to see that the current system doesn’t handle well enough. Others have given quite effective examples.

We want a 3d game. We want everything that comes with a 3d game. Being an ASCII game in no way precludes this being a 3d game, it just limits our ability to communicate a 3d display. That’s fine. We’re not looking for a 3d display, we’re looking for 3d mechanics. If you don’t want, or care about, 3d mechanics, that’s fine too - but many people do. So that’s where we are going. And your stuff isn’t good enough for that, so no, it’s not getting in.[/quote]

Almost nothing you have in the game is good enough for that. You are already merging and rewriting lots of stuff that is not good enough for that either. How is my church bell tower any worse than office underground garage for example? Have you even tried it?

DOWNLOAD (18. May): MGSmod rev.40b

Cataclysm-MGS_rev40.zip

• “church bell tower build”

[Weyrling]

[quote=“LazyCat, post:76, topic:1229”][quote=“GlyphGryph, post:74, topic:1229”]LazyCat, I already provided you with a list of the stuff we’d like to see that the current system doesn’t handle well enough. Others have given quite effective examples.

We want a 3d game. We want everything that comes with a 3d game. Being an ASCII game in no way precludes this being a 3d game, it just limits our ability to communicate a 3d display. That’s fine. We’re not looking for a 3d display, we’re looking for 3d mechanics. If you don’t want, or care about, 3d mechanics, that’s fine too - but many people do. So that’s where we are going. And your stuff isn’t good enough for that, so no, it’s not getting in.[/quote]
Almost nothing you have in the game is good enough for that. You are already merging and rewriting lots of stuff that is not good enough for that either. How is my church bell tower any worse than office underground garage for example? Have you even tried it?[/quote]
The point isn’t how the current code isn’t good enough, or what content is added to the game by your code, you’re duplicating an old hack that made the game pretend to be 3d. The point is that it isn’t worth cluttering up, changing, or confusing the relevant code (more than it already is) before the eventual rewrite, as it’ll just slow everything down.

There are plenty of genuinely 3d ASCII games that can be navigated, run fast, and properly process all the different levels, and I think this would be an excellent addition/change to the game.
There are a huge number of things that can be done in 3d that just don’t work in faux-3d or 2d.

[LazyCat]

The point isn’t how the current code isn’t good enough, or what content is added to the game by your code, you’re duplicating an old hack that made the game pretend to be 3d.

It’s not any kind of hack, it’s how every single 2D top-down view game is doing it, Dwarf Fortress too. There is no better way to store two dimensional maps than two dimensional arrays, even if they are layered over multiple z-levels.

The point is that it isn't worth cluttering up, changing, or confusing the relevant code (more than it already is) before the eventual rewrite, as it'll just slow everything down.

How is my church bell tower cluttering the code any more than office underground garage or any other new building recently added? It’s the same code, it’s the same thing.

There are plenty of genuinely 3d ASCII games that can be navigated, run fast, and properly process all the different levels, and

Can you name one, other than DF?

[Rivet]

My two cents:

I really like what we have now, it’s stable enough to play and has a lot of variety; there’s a lot of fun things to do and it works so I have no complaints.

Egos are funny things, they can drive people to create great stuff, and they can drive use to defend our sometimes incomplete creations against constructive criticism because it’s our creation - sometimes folks intrinsically link their ego to their project. What matters is a good final result, not practicing our argumentum ad nauseam skills or calling each other names; we wouldn’t need threats of thread moderation if we all made the small effort to remain objective.

That being said, I’d love to see a good Z level system in DDA, but I’m also willing to let the developers do what they do: sort out cruft and make sure that the final result contributes to improving gameplay in a meaningful way that meets (and usually exceeds) expectations.

[kilozombie]

Other games don’t require multiple Z-level endeavors because there are very few functions that would need it.

DF and Cataclysm, on the other hand, can make amazing use of it.

Your current code is good-looking but it’s built on shaky, bad code. Whales made a z-level system that PRETENDED to work, and for most functions it was fine.

[Narc]

[quote=“LazyCat, post:75, topic:1229”][…]Millions of other games don’t care about it, which makes it ludicrous it’s somehow not good enough for this game with ASCII graphics.[/quote]That’s a specious argument: the devs here are not writing millions of other games, they’re writing Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. And they’re doing it in the way they want to see it done.

Arguing with that is just an exercise in futility, as well as a good way to make lots and lots of people start ignoring everything you say.

[kilozombie]

Your argument is comparable to this:

I want to build a house. All the other houses in the neighborhood are single-story but I would like one that has an upper floor as well. In order to save time, I decide not to build a staircase, because none of the other houses use it. It’s overwhelmingly tiring to try to jump to the next floor, and everyone urges me to just build some stairs. But I don’t, because nobody else needs them.

Or even against your argument about not changing current code:

My friend built a rickety elevator that can support one person. It works for a long time, since I’m the only one who has to use it. Then more people show up. Instead of making a new elevator, I just give it more ropes and nail on some more boards. It works for the second person, albeit with some shaking… the third person nearly makes it collapse, I add more boards and ropes until the fifth person and I cannot add any more. My friend, meanwhile, is building a new elevator that could support TWENTY people and an elephant, but I refuse to help him, since we can probably hack together something out of this old rickety elevator.

[LazyCat]

I really like what we have now, it’s stable enough to play and has a lot of variety; there’s a lot of fun things to do and it works so I have no complaints.

So then, can you tell me how is my church bell tower any worse than office underground garage? Have you even tried it?

DOWNLOAD (18. May): MGSmod rev.40b

Cataclysm-MGS_rev40.zip

• “church bell tower build”

[LazyCat]

[quote=“Narc, post:81, topic:1229”]That’s a specious argument: the devs here are not writing millions of other games, they’re writing Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead. And they’re doing it in the way they want to see it done.

Arguing with that is just an exercise in futility, as well as a good way to make lots and lots of people start ignoring everything you say.[/quote]

If you are going to eat your soup with a fork I’ll tell you should use a spoon. And if you are going to ignore me it is you who will be exercising in futility.

[GlyphGryph]

This thread is going nowhere quickly. Either someone adds something new to the conversation at some point, or it’s getting locked.

[LazyCat]

This thread is going nowhere quickly. Either someone adds something new to the conversation at some point, or it’s getting locked.

You did not answer my question:

• How is my church bell tower any worse than office underground garage for example? Have you even tried it?

DOWNLOAD (18. May): MGSmod rev.40b

Cataclysm-MGS_rev40.zip

• “church bell tower build”

[LazyCat]

[quote=“kilozombie, post:80, topic:1229”]Other games don’t require multiple Z-level endeavors because there are very few functions that would need it.

DF and Cataclysm, on the other hand, can make amazing use of it.[/quote]

- "Yeah, I’d love to get a proper Zlevel system in at some point, but it’s not likely to happen in the foreseeable future."
The Darkling Wolf, February 01, 2013

http://www.cataclysmdda.com/smf/index.php?topic=26.msg1336#msg1336

[kilozombie]

…Why is that your argument?

Yes, z-levels will be hard to implement. That’s not even my point, my point is that they can be GREAT.

Plus, that was three months ago. Who knows what’s coming next? Somebody earlier said they wanted to try to implement it in .7 or so.

[LazyCat]

…Why is that your argument?

There are no arguments here. There are dreams, and then there is reality.

Yes, z-levels will be hard to implement. That's not even my point, my point is that they can be GREAT.

Z-levels are already implemented. It’s just that if you want to see other levels it looks ugly, and if you want to process all of them simultaneously it’s horribly slow. And there is simply no way around it as long as they are sticking to Linux curses and console graphics, which they do.

So, as I told you before, you can have them the way they are now, where each floor is area by itself but monsters will follow you up/down stairs like they normally do and how every single z-level was working so far without anyone complaining about it before, or you will have no above ground levels at all, ever.

When you go to missile silo, do you really care you can’t see levels above or below?

When you go into temple, do you really care you can’t throw a grenade down the stairs?

[i2amroy]

This thread is going nowhere quickly. Either someone adds something new to the conversation at some point, or it’s getting locked.

I think this is probably the best idea. It’s already been explained why LazyCat’s z-level implementation hasn’t been merged, and since then pretty much all we’ve done is run in circles.