# 6+ months of agonizing "realism" nerfs have ruined this game

**URL:** <https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504>\
**Category:** The Bunker\
**Created:** [September 7, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504 "2016-09-07T12:33:41Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/21 "2016-09-08T00:12:30Z")

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As far as I know, only zombie-dropped clothes can be filthy.

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**Author:** ![BeerBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@BeerBeer](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/BeerBeer)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/22 "2016-09-08T00:16:01Z")

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And then there’s the thing of ‘newcomers’ vs. ‘longtime players’.

What do the newcomers think of these controversial changes that have been introduced? I mean specifically the ones so fresh that they weren’t around to experience the change.

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**Author:** ![Commie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@Commie](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Commie)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/23 "2016-09-08T00:28:27Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> As far as I know, only zombie-dropped clothes can be filthy.

Cool beans.

I have no idea what kind of drama is going on/did go on here, but thanks for all the work you did do or are doing. I really enjoy the game and your arcane mod specifically.

[quote=“BeerBeer, post:22, topic:12504”]And then there’s the thing of ‘newcomers’ vs. ‘longtime players’.

What do the newcomers think of these controversial changes that have been introduced? I mean specifically the ones so fresh that they weren’t around to experience the change.[/quote]

Based on what’s in this thread, keep in mind last version I played was the Cooper release…

I never wore zombie clothes, which is likely why after coming back to CDDA i didn’t notice this specific controversial change. Frankly putting on zombie clothes seems disgusting. I don’t know if that’s a ‘fun’ change or not but yeah, the lowest tier of savaging behavior should have some penalty. Yeah it should be toggleable.

I like the magazine change. Yes, it’s clunky, so are guns, actually. So is reloading and keeping track of magazines. I personally think this is a good change all around as it makes revolvers/lever actions get a huge advantage for long excursions as you arn’t worrying about juggling and reloading 8 magazines.

Generally all my cars end up as gigantic 4 engine 8 gas tank 16 wheeled killdozers so a nerf to one kind of engine is sort of irrelevant, if it even happened.

I ran into a ‘hell castle’ and died. Was fun. Found a funky temple that collapsed on itself after some… supernatural thing in the basement threw a fit due to my presence. That was fun. LMOE’s arn’t god-tier anymore due to noise and shit working through z-levels. I like it. Think I saw some new monsters too.

Something changed with encumbrance cause im encumbered to all hell. Seems ok though as I am just used to wearing an absurd amount of layers w/o problems.

Other then that game seems good. Still a bit sad portals and ‘hellmouths’ (I think) don’t seem to do anything.

Feel free to bring up other features I might not know about for critique and I’ll let you know what I think. I’m not at endgame currently but should be there soon.

Sorry if this post causes drama. Ya’ll are adults though and I don’t know anyone so it’s impossible for any of this to be a ‘personal attack’ so don’t take it that way. It’s all just what I think~

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**Author:** ![Zilenan91](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Zilenan91](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zilenan91)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/24 "2016-09-08T00:34:41Z")

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Signed up on the forums to say that I seem to be one of the few people to actually like the Magazine system. To my knowledge, things like extended magazines weren’t actually in existence before magazines were introduced, which allows more utility to guns overall. MP5 extended magazines as an example, they have about 66% more bullets in an extended magazine than a regular one which lets the MP5 scale much better later on in the game. Heck your ammo doesn’t even cost volume anymore, you can just find/make pouches to store your magazines in.

I also don’t get why people say magazines are tedious. It’s very very easy to find magazines for most guns, super rare Rivtech and other ones aside. People also seem to underestimate just how good guns are in current experimentals. With Stamina being so punishing (can’t melee hordes to death anymore which is a good thing) and ammo being common guns are actually useful and not just cool trinkets you find in towns.

Also filthiness is dumb please remove it. It taking 40 units of clean water to clean one piece of clothing is ridiculous.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/25 "2016-09-08T00:36:20Z")

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> [@Zilenan91](#):
>
> Signed up on the forums to say that I seem to be one of the few people to actually like the Magazine system.

I didn’t mind it either. I helped work on some of the research for magazines for assorted guns, especially ones I added.

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**Author:** ![Commie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@Commie](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Commie)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/26 "2016-09-08T00:42:40Z")

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Oh I also like the change to books and memorizing shit w/o actually doing it.

Before this it felt like every character I had was walking around with eidetic memory or something.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/27 "2016-09-08T00:47:32Z")

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I thought I would dislike it, but you tend to hoard books anyway to grind skills, so it’s kinda natural to do that.

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**Author:** ![Zilenan91](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Zilenan91](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Zilenan91)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/28 "2016-09-08T00:57:57Z")

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Yeah when I learned about that change I thought it was nice. Instead of reading all the books for a long time you can just keep them in a trunk near your crafting area and then you’ll have the recipes from your nearby books, just not memorized. You do memorize them after you craft them though which makes it a pretty cool system as a whole.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/29 "2016-09-08T01:10:09Z")

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Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.

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**Author:** ![deoxy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@deoxy](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/deoxy)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/30 "2016-09-08T03:30:10Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.

I love/hate that about those books. Nifty idea, but there should be some way around it - maybe make significantly higher level recipes that are exactly the same but don’t take the books?

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/31 "2016-09-08T03:36:27Z")

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It does act consistent with the idea of magic rituals though. :V

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**Author:** ![Rivet](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/rivet/32/11_2.png) [@Rivet](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Rivet)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/32 "2016-09-08T04:51:04Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> No idea what Rivet’s opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I’m on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn’t want to put on [this guy’s](https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Boom cranes - could use some TLC regarding their weight limits. Other than that I’m fine with the addition of jacks and such - it always struck me as odd that the character could hold a car up with one hand while changing a tire with the other.

Recipe learning requiring books during crafting - I’d like this a little more if you could learn recipes whose requirements are well below your skill level by simply reading them. A master chef shouldn’t have a particularly difficult time learning an entry-level cooking recipe by simply reading it a time or three. Other than that, I’m fine with it. Used to be, people hoarded books just long enough to suck the information out of them and automagically memorize it all before casting them aside, and that never seemed right to me.

Electric motors - haven’t been nerfed to the best of my knowledge, so I’m not sure what that’s about.

Firearm magazines - I love this one. Looooove it. I’d rather spend the extra few seconds loading up a bunch of mags prior to engaging in combat if it means that I can swap them out as they run dry instead of having to constantly stop in the middle of the fight/disengage to load a firearm with a removable magazine - whose primary advantage over firearms with internal magazines is that you can carry lots of pre-loaded magazines with you. Previous behavior was that all guns effectively had internal magazines, and it was ridiculous that we couldn’t carry spare mags in order to reload quickly on the go.

Solar panels - were nerfed a good long while ago (I think it was right after 0.C came out) because a single bog-standard panel was all it took to recharge an entire bank of large storage cells in a single afternoon. I agree with the decision, since they were waaaay too efficient before.

> [@Thwap](#):
>
> Point is, this game has been run into the ground with neckbeardy “realism” fetishism, and there’s no real reason for anyone who isn’t a Dwarf Fortress enthusiast with OCD to bother since interesting content additions have been inversely proportional to pointless crippling nerfs for ages now.

Projecting some nasty assumptions while making light of mental illness for bonus points.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/33 "2016-09-08T04:55:25Z")

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> [@Rivet](#):
>
> Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I’m on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn’t want to put on [this guy’s](https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.

Yeah, I’m in favor of it having a practical purpose, not morale. Either way it was not a well-thought-out idea. Still, that’s the closest to a sane answer we’ve got from the project heads aside from Coolthulhu’s disapproval of it.

I’m also in favor of there being some option, mod, or whatever to disable it. Are there any PRs in the works doing that?

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**Author:** ![Rivet](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/rivet/32/11_2.png) [@Rivet](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Rivet)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/34 "2016-09-08T05:07:31Z")

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There’s [a PR](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18229) in the pipe that adds a trait to disable the morale effect. I’ll be happy to merge it once all of its lumps are hammered out.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 5:20am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/35 "2016-09-08T05:20:12Z")

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I see. Huh. Looked at their error report and I’m as stumped as they are.

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**Author:** ![Commie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cab0a1/32.png) [@Commie](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Commie)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:01am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/36 "2016-09-08T08:01:29Z")

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> [@deoxy](#):
>
> [quote=“Random\_dragon, post:29, topic:12504”]Arcana mod also mandates that you keep the books on hand to craft, via their being tools. So this idea being a mainline feature is something with a mod-based precedent already set for it.

I love/hate that about those books. Nifty idea, but there should be some way around it - maybe make significantly higher level recipes that are exactly the same but don’t take the books?[/quote]

I pictured them more like spellbooks, actual magic books, compared to ‘to serve man’ which you just memorize.

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**Author:** ![ApatheticExcuse](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex016/user_avatar/discourse.cataclysmdda.org/apatheticexcuse/32/433_2.png) [@ApatheticExcuse](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/ApatheticExcuse)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:19am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/37 "2016-09-08T08:19:40Z")

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> [@Rivet](#):
>
> [quote=“Random\_dragon, post:13, topic:12504”]No idea what Rivet’s opinion on these game design fuckups are, but she at least is generally as sensible as Coolthulhu about game design, moreso than Kevin.

Filthy clothes - needs a good bit more work. The morale penalty is mostly ignorable due to the effect going away the moment the clothing in question is removed. I’m on board wit the idea behind it (I know I wouldn’t want to put on [this guy’s](https://media.giphy.com/media/XRJmIyONbJbd6/giphy.gif) clothes) I just think it needs some refactoring. Changing the primary malus out for increased chance of infection when wounded would be an excellent step in the right direction.[/quote]

I’d disagree. Doing that would simply turn if from an apparently unpopular mechanic that people can ignore into an equally bad mechanic that people actually have to pay attention to. Conceptually, and speaking realistically, it makes sense. In terms of actually fun, it doesn’t.

> Boom cranes - could use some TLC regarding their weight limits. Other than that I'm fine with the addition of jacks and such - it always struck me as odd that the character could hold a car up with one hand while changing a tire with the other.

I might be wrong, but I’m pretty sure jacks have been in game since the first few 0.C releases. Boom cranes kinda have the same logic as the above - makes sense, but for bad gameplay. Jacks are ok because you can at least move them around without too much hassle.

> Recipe learning requiring books during crafting - I'd like this a little more if you could learn recipes whose requirements are well below your skill level by simply reading them. A master chef shouldn't have a particularly difficult time learning an entry-level cooking recipe by simply reading it a time or three. Other than that, I'm fine with it. Used to be, people hoarded books just long enough to suck the information out of them and automagically memorize it all before casting them aside, and that never seemed right to me.

This makes sense I think, and most people who were against this seem to be realizing they keep all their books anyway, so it doesn’t matter too much. I’d certainly agree that simple shit should be easy enough to memorize, depending on your skill.

> Firearm magazines - I love this one. Looooove it. I'd rather spend the extra few seconds loading up a bunch of mags prior to engaging in combat if it means that I can swap them out as they run dry instead of having to constantly stop in the middle of the fight/disengage to load a firearm with a removable magazine - whose primary advantage over firearms with internal magazines is that [i]you can carry lots of pre-loaded magazines with you[/i]. Previous behavior was that all guns effectively had internal magazines, and it was ridiculous that we couldn't carry spare mags in order to reload quickly on the go.

This is an extra “make work” type feature that actually works well in game in my opinion. I get why people don’t like it, but I can’t say I have a problem with it. I think a big part of it is that you can just ignore it all together if you’re not into it.

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**Author:** ![survivornaginata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@survivornaginata](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/survivornaginata)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:24am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/38 "2016-09-08T08:24:46Z")

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> [@Rivet](#):
>
> There’s [a PR](https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/18229) in the pipe that adds a trait to disable the morale effect. I’ll be happy to merge it once all of its lumps are hammered out.

maybe upgrading outdorsman with this filth resistance would be better than adding new trait.just spring to my mid and i doubt outdorsman is used much anyway and this would be make it very interesting options for those who have problems with morale penalities cause of filth/elements.

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**Author:** ![Random\_dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4da419/32.png) [@Random\_dragon](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/Random_dragon)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/39 "2016-09-08T08:47:23Z")

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If we do anything with outdoorsman, adding clothing filth seems to break the theme. I’ve always thought it could plausdibly affect comfort in slightly chilly/warm weather maybe.

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**Author:** ![survivornaginata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@survivornaginata](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/u/survivornaginata)\
**Post date:** [September 8, 2016, 9:02am UTC](https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/6-months-of-agonizing-realism-nerfs-have-ruined-this-game/12504/40 "2016-09-08T09:02:20Z")

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> [@Random\_dragon](#):
>
> If we do anything with outdoorsman, adding clothing filth seems to break the theme. I’ve always thought it could plausdibly affect comfort in slightly chilly/warm weather maybe.

well i guess you are right-i presume outdoorsman would be more accostomed to filth from nature and not zombies.

suggestion about comfort lvls about temaprature is great.i would seriously consider choosing trait which could lessen penalties from warm weather as summer heat is killing me.

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